to think that school uniform ties for girls are ridiculous

[Hiyamaya]

Why on earth do schools make girls wear ties?

Uniform is crap anyway. It introduces something to create utterly unnecessary battles and rarely looks smart in any case. Fewer and fewer people wear uniform to work, and most school uniforms are badly designed and made from horrible materials. Most of us will not spend the rest of our lives wearing anything resembling the uniform we wore to school.

My children have moved from a uniformed school in the UK to a non uniform school in Canada and I don't think it has made any difference at all. Both schools have nice communities and good behaviour. The schools I've known with the strictest uniforms have had the worst behaviour problems.

My memories of uniform at secondary school were mostly of being told off by teachers who were themselves fairly scruffy for looking scruffy myself, generally caused by having to wear uniform that didn't fit (skirts not designed for hips, and shirts that were too short to tuck into the skirt). dh's memories are of being told off for having slightly long hair in front of pictures from the 70's when everyone had long hair. Just stupid necessary arguments, which in my experience lowers the respect you have for your teachers.

Have no problem whatsoever about girls or boys wearing ties. In schools with a strict uniform code, however, I have a big big problem about teachers in leisure wear. If the students have to wear a tie so too do male teachers, no spaghetti straps for female teachers and NEVER EVER any staff in flip flops. If the chidren are expected to be smart and formal the expectation should be the same for the staff - not negotiable.

Maybe I like tying my non existant husbands tie. I like ties. Maybe it is a wierd boarding school fetish .

Wearing a tie will not scar you for life. I had to wear a long kilt, jumper, long sleeved white shirt, blazer and hat for my winter uniform. Along with said tie. We all looked neat and tidy.

Whenskiesareblue -I went to a girls school that admitted boys in the sixth form. We didn't wear uniform in sixth form, but if we had, by your 'it's only a uniform, no special measures' logic shouldn't the boys have been required to fit into the uniform of summer dresses, skirts etc...

Similarly on the same-for-all standard couldn't a mixed school adopt cardigans or revere collar blouses as their standard uniform for all? Of course not - why? because it would look ridiculous on the boys, men don't generally wear these garments, they'd feel self conscious etc...

The only reason these same reasons aren't obvious when it comes to girls and ties is because we are so used to the male standard being the norm in academia and professional life.

Hiyamaya - I couldn't agree with you more!

No-one seems to mind about everyone wearing trousers - beacuse it's quite normal for both adult males and females to do so. But ties/skirts/dresses are another matter.

But surely, if you look at non-uniform wear, women have a lot more freedom it what they can wear than men. Women generally wear jeans, and joggers. Men generally don't wear skirts, dresses etc. So therefore, when picking a uniform, surely it has to made up of clothes that both sexes 'can' wear? And I think I would probably include a tie in that? In fact, <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=www.nowmagazine.co.uk/imageBank/1/1779981.jpg&imgrefurl=www.nowmagazine.co.uk/celebrity-news/tv-news/340870/the-apprentice-s-philip-taylor--sir-alan-sugar-was-my-very-own-cilla-black/1/&usg=__Bx2MDkdl3bxW13YY0Y6_dNFHgTE=&h=400&w=300&sz=22&hl=en&start=22&zoom=1&tbnid=O_0uBjBQcfhVUM:&tbnh=158&tbnw=119&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dthe%2Bapprentice%2B2009%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1T4GFRE_enGB387GB388%26biw%3D1345%26bih%3D484%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=321&vpy=153&dur=3370&hovh=259&hovw=194&tx=73&ty=278&ei=QlLDTJHIG5WTjAeckfS4BQ&oei=NlLDTMz7EI2H5AbI9qi6Aw&esq=3&page=3&ndsp=11&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:22" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">here is last years The Apprentice winner wearing a tie, I don't think it looks out of place.

Also, traditionally speaking, didn't a school tie display the school's colours?

when you wore a tie during school did you really feel upset?...did it dent your woman-hood?..ffs its a garment you will most likely wear very rarely...in real life after school...

Wearing ties never stopped hanky panky at my school, hehehe

Why is desexualising of girls equated to making them dress like boys? Why not desexualise the boys? Are little girls in their everyday clothes sexualised (apart from clothes that are obviously trampy)

What Hiyamaya said, in other words...

Why is the mens' or boys' clothing the norm?

TheSmallClanger, Police officers haven't all abandoned it (the progressive forces have) but I am afraid I still have to wear a clip on tie, the same as the men.

Is it an actual tie, or a cravat thing? I think our local police wear polo shirts and stab vests, but I do remember seeing policewomen with checked cravats.

I find uniforms strange and sort of interesting. If we were really interested in creating gender-neutral, non-sexual, non-distracting outfits, then surely something really plain and unobtrusive like trousers and logo t-shirts would work? If we were to really mean it, then dungarees or overalls would do better to desexualise their wearers than school uniforms.

I reckon in solidarity with younger members of the sisterhood, we should have a national 'wear a tie to work day' and turn up like this:

Our dean would probably have some sort of cardiac arrest

Cravats were abandoned a few years ago in favour of ties and I think it won't be long before we start wearing polos, as most other forces have started to.

Boff's favourite school uniform for girls

"Why is the mens' or boys' clothing the norm?"

Because (very) subconsciously, we all consider women to have lower status than men. A woman wearing a man's uniform is, by association empowered and has raised status. A man wearing a woman's uniform is ridiculous and has lowered status.

We can rationalise this as much as we like, but if your DH decides to wear a dress tomorrow, your subconscious will tell you he looks ridiculous, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Absolutely....the Police service has demanded that women dress "up" to be like the men, hence the ties, shirts, trousers, outer jackets,boots and overalls.

Pumpkin, I suspect you're right.
What that says about schools and organisations that have strictly divided male and female uniforms, I'm not sure.

Although I've been corrected about RAF airwomen and ties, the point still remains about their parade uniforms - sharp tunics and trousers and caps for men, hideous kick-pleated skirts and funny hats for women.

Nursing has gone the opposite way - increasingly, male and female nurses both wear scrubs, which are very desexualising.