To think that every time people want to talk about those on benefits

[chibi]

they should have to mention that most benefit claimants are actually working, and that due to crap wages or expensive housing or both most people recording benefits like hb ctc or whatever actually need them and no amount of pulling up by bootstraps or getting on ones bike is going to change that

I just feel that all of the fighting over who deserves the axe/who's most feckless/etc is distracting from the key point that surely there is something wrong here when a big chunk of your working population need wages topping up by the government in order to live

'single mums make their bed and have to lie in it'

yes,we do!!! but not with a feckless,no good 'DH' who doesnt pull his weight/shouts at the dc/witholds his money,leaving you with no clothes/cheats/stays out all night with his mates etc etc,those are examples just from mumsnet threads this week!!!

Actually Mme, if you want to have that discussion, it may be better to post it on the relationships board?

SD dont waste your energies - no one with any sense would think that vulnerable people should be left to starve

I didn't want to bring single mothers in to it but while we're here I will say that while people are happy to wring their hands over the plight of poor children it would also be good to acknowledge that poor children have poor parents and that throwing poor parents into homelessness or starvation cannot possibly help their parents

Earlybird - Maybe you should then show in your post that you are aware there are people who do claim legally, not just say everyone I know.

Why do you feel the need to turn a post about the problem of wages vs living costs, into a moan about the non working people in this country who are de-frauding the system. Just becasue a small minority do it, does not mean the problems in this country can't be debated without it being brought up, when really is has nothing to do with the present discussion.

Oops cannot possibly help the children that should say

You can't on the one hand want poor children to be fed/clothed/not in want and on the other hand want to starve their parents

I am 48 years old and got married 26 years ago and purchased my first home in 1986.

Being a control freak I have always written out a family budget every six months of my life.

Houses are expensive rent or mortgage, and always were. Having lived through 16% mortgage rates and now having the lowest mortgage rates ever dreamed of I don't think that is a major issue.

Personally I once paid £1050 per month for a 75k mortgage and now pay £300 for a £120K mortgage.

If I look at my budgets over the years the most startling changes are fuel, gas electricity, petrol and food.

It now costs almost twice my mortgage payment to feed my family each month.

My fuel bills, gas and electricity are £200 per month which is crazy money.

I do think the minimum wage needs to be increased, but would this have a knock on effect of increasing prices.

I was working in the retail industry when the minimum wage was introduced and it resulted in redundancies as the wage bill could not be covered and therefore less people had to work harder.

We have no manufacturing industy in this country anymore as others nations are prepared to do the work we were doing for much less money.

So I think companies making huge profits from selling necessities like food and cheap imported clothes, such as Tesco should be targetted for more tax, quite how we would achieve this I am not sure.

Single mums make their bed and have to lie in it....

not all single mums are single through choice my sister was pregnant with DS3 when her charming husband started becoming abusive and was shown the door I have 2 friends although never married to the fathers in the same position. one is now married and the other in a long term relationship. my sister will in all likelihood always be single as her trust has totally gone.
She works and gets top up benefits.

And an additional

DP works FT, gets a bit over min wage, he earns £16K. We end up needing EVERY penny of the £348 a week benefits we get as a top up. That £348 covers CB, CTC, WTC and HB. We live a very frugal life, charity shop furniture no holidays or out of school activities for the dc's etc. And by the end of every month are struggling to put money on the gas or electric meters. In fact right now, I have no gas and can't put any on till tuesday. It's a good job it's still warm enough that jumpers or a fleece blanket will do.

Mme, I hope you have the guts to come back and apologize for that stupid comment before one of several posters I can think of whose husbands have died see it.

Seriously, even if you claim it's a jokey comment, could you please report yourself and get it deleted, it's horrible.

LRP Well said!! Vile comment from Mme....is she anne widdecombe is disguise I wonder?????

My food bill is horrendous and there are only 4 of us!!! I have bought a slow cooker to hopefully make cheap cuts of meat more paletable (sp?)

As for Jan when VAT goes up....it will make my food bill close to £600 per month!!

I agree with the op, This government has failed to address a real issue! They fail to improve the minimum wage! its frankly disgusting! My friend works full time running a funeral home! He basically does 3 peoples jobs ( when they left, the owners never bothered to replace them) And he brings home £300 a week! His rent is £200 a week!?
This government is only interested in waging a war against the poor! not interested in improving lives at all!

I agree, My partner earns 17k and we get a ctc and wtc its ridiculous But everything is so expensive and atm were pouring £550 down the drain renting which we have paid on time every month for 4 years such a shame as we would love to buy :(

'Compared to the cost of living in this country, where every bloody last thing is expensive,' No I'm afraid you are wrong - the UK is far cheaper than other places. I live just outside Brussels and am always astounded how much say £200 will get me in Sainsbury's as opposed to the equivalent in euros in Carrefour.

Books are expensive here, electronics are expensive here, car tax is expensive here, insurance is expensive here, house prices and rents are expensive here, utilities (and there is hardly any competition) are expensive here; petrol also, food, clothes and shoes are through the roof. I buy most of our clothes in the UK. I think since I have been here and that is 4 years now, I have bought myself 2 items of clothing. Everything else I get mail order from the UK, or hit the shops when I'm home. Bin bags are 30euros for 20 and you have to use the ones for your commune.

Tax is 50% here, social security on top, so please, the UK is a far cheaper place to live than Belgium for instance, don't delude yourself.

Blimey, Scary, I hope your salaries compensate!

House prices have to come down. It will be much better for the UK than min wage going up as it bridges the gap without impacting competitiveness/ number of people employed.

I suspect they will. Although things like HB caps are bad short term, they do reduce rent yields which reduce the price LL's will pay for investment properties. At the same time, unemployment will prob go up and interest rates can only go one way. Capital reserve legislation makes it harder for banks to lend. I just cant see many factors at the moment working in the other direction (i,e to increase prices). However, whether it's enough to make a difference I'm not sure- 10% wont really make things easier for many people.

Sounds awful.

Have you thought of moving?

"We really need to ask WTF is going on when working full time even above min wage will not be enough to let you live without topups"

I agree with this but then we have had another thread this week where people have said why should someone commute an hour each way to a job on minimum wage but the fact is they don't, it's minimum wage PLUS help from the government. Does anyone actually have to live just on minimum wage?

I don't think they do. So the government is paying the employer, really, but via supplementing the employee. If the min wage was a sensible amount, there'd be no need for topups, but the employer wouldn't be able/willing to pay a sensible salary.

I wonder if there would be any way of forcing the utility companies to provide a certain amount of cheap water/electricity/gas etc for those on very low incomes - vouchers could be provided for these services through the benefits system. Or transport providers to provide subsidised travel?

If there was a way of ensuring that everyone had access to the basic necessities, no matter where they lived in the country, it might allow more people to manage on their income without needing benefits to simply survive.

Surely most people in work and recieving gov top ups find it very disheartening that they need extra help, despite making their best efforts to support themselves.

It would be lovely to survive without any help, however I can't honestly see a way round it at the moment, as I think a higher minimum wage would lead to many employers cutting the number of people they employ, thus putting more out of work.

Being a single parent/not having a job/claiming benefits/having a job/income topped up with benefits or any other combination was not a crime last time I checked. Neither were tax avodance schemes. Funnily enough nobody gets their knickers in a twist about those - just saves their ire for the poor while feathering their own nests.

ME
Single Parent (NOT through choice)
Working part-time as I have a disabled son (hope that's okay with the likes of MmBlueberry).
Income topped up with tax credit/working tax credit and some DLA

Oh and I have 40" flat screen TV which I will NOT justify except to say that it was bought when times were better.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if there is a way of making the large/profitable companies put a proportion of their profits into providing cut-price services, rather than public money being spent on those same services.

I met a Jersey lawyer recently. They have no legal aid system. Every lawyer has to take it in turns to represent people on low income pro-bono and the firms survive on their fees from other work.

Are there any economists here who can say whether this system would work? Highly-paid private doctors having to do x number of free hours, top-end barristers having to take on x number of pro-bono cases a year etc.

If every organisation that made over a certain amount of profit had to put a proportion of that profit back into society, would that not make everyone more invested in ensuring that everyone had access to basic necessities? It might also cut a lot of the whinging if people could actually see where their hard work was going, and understand how tax payers pay into the economy, rather than just moaning about "government money".