or are neighbours?

[Hellis5am]

sorry for a long post!

we live in a house converted into 2 flats, on the ground floor. DS's bedroom is unfortunately under the upstairs neighbour's bedroom (and we can't really move him). he is 18m and has never been a great sleeper. we resorted to controlled crying (i know,i know, but it worked great for us!) a long time ago to get him to sleep through and he's not been a massive problem since. there is the odd disturbed night if he's sick or teething or something, obviously, but most nights he sleeps through. however, he does wake early. if all is well it's usually between 6 and 7 (closer to 6!) but when he's teething he is prone to waking around 5-5.30. it's horrible, and he is quite noisy when he wakes, but as soon as i hear him i get him up and get him out that room.

the neighbours have complained before about these early wake up calls when it's happened, and i've assured them i won't leave him to cry (much as i might want to!) and i will move him from the room but they say they can't get back to sleep after he wakes them. i thought i woke up fairly quickly when he did but this morning i woke to him at 5.15 and have just seen the neighbour who complained about being woken at 4.55 and having to listen to him cry for 20 minutes. I am so surprised that i didn't wake up before that, i must've been in a real deep sleep, and i'm not sure what i can do about that! i assured her it wasn't deliberate and that i did make a conscious effort to get him up and out as quick as possible when i heard him. she is quite unhappy, says her boyfriend is working til 10 at night at the moment and really can't be woken at that time.

when it strated getting light in the mornings, it took DS a while to adjust and so he woke early for some time then and we got complaints most days. they have been away most of the summer (when of course he slept fine!!) and only got back this week, when (of course!) he has had a bad bout of teething. i explained this but she said that either we ought to ask the landlord about sound proofing the ceiling of DS's room or sort it ourselves. i will ask the landlord but i know he will laugh me out of the room, the way he is. so is the onus on us to do it?

i completely understand that it is horrible to be woken at 5am (i also hate it!) but i really don't know what to do. should we pay for sound proofing if the landlord won't, bearing in mind it's rented and we won't be here forever (they own their flat)? also, from what i have read, it is more effective to sound proof a floor in these cases, so do we offer to pay for that? we don't really have the money at all.

DH is of the opinion that they are complaining a bit much, we have done everything we can (black outs, soft furnishings, later bedtime, getting him out as quick as poss etc) and he is a baby and it won't be forever. he is quite horrified that people would complain about a baby, but is from a different culture where nobody would. i agree really, but am slightly more sympathetic to them, and also don't want some kind of neighbourly feud! i already have found myself hiding to avoid them on occasion!! today she told me she knows there is nothing i can do about him waking 6ish and they will deal with that as he gets up at 6ish anyway for work, but 5 is not acceptable. But i can't do anything about him waking at 5 either!

DS is a real handful as it is, so i am really tired myself and find the whole thing quite stressful. the neighbour has upset me today (probably because i'm over tired!)and i find i stress about it a lot.i would LOVE a child that slept 12hrs a night but he just isn't one of those and is a light sleeper. i am actually now desperate to move because of this problem, despite the flat being otherwise perfect for us, which seems a shame. we also want a 2nd child but i'm worried about that too!

i try very hard to be a good neighbour and feel that this is one of those difficult situations that come with living in flats. i totally understand their being upset but really feel that us having to pay to sound proof a rented flat for a transient problem is a bit much to ask. i really need some objective opinions!!

AIBU or are they? does anyone know any legalities as to who the onus is on? or anyone been in a similar situation with suggestions?

Can't they move their bedroom? I understand you can't move yours.

If that was the attitude that we took then children would be kept in nurseries away from the rest of the world until they were old enough to go to boarding school. Babies cry, and whilst you should do whatever it takes to minimise the noise, it's a fact of life that you have to live with. Earplugs (wonderful things, and v cheap) and a bit of give and take is required here.

Having children is part of life and we all have to get used to them whether is ours or not. If you as a parent are working hard at raising your child and struggeling to get him to sleep, I cant believe that you are put in this position by your neighboor. We all put up with worse in life than this- please allow yourself to be spoiled wrotten by not jumping to your child's cry.

If that wakes them up and are not able to go to sleep, tell them to come downstairs for a cuppa and keep you companly...

...or tell them to pay for a sound proof system for your nursery!! Now that will be the icing on the cake..

they could move their bedroom, yes, they have a spare. not saying they should have to, by the way everyone!! just answering the question...

when dh gets up with ds, i use earplugs or i'd never get back to sleep. he has the tv on, isn't the quietest child and they are walking above my head but i don't hear any of it and get back to sleep nicely. however, the neighbour says they don't work. again, not questioning her, if they don't they don't but i do honestly think there is a bit of a 'decision' made by them to not be able to get back to sleep. i just wish they were like dh who sleeps through it even if the bloody child is in the same room!!

wayoftheworld - lol. i am desperate for them to have a baby, a really bad one, maybe with colic!! mean i know. don't think it's on the cards tho.

i totally understand what it's like to not have kids - i remember! - and just not get it. and i also don't think that people with kids who sleep well get it - how your whole day revolves around getting them to sleep at night. it's very trying and stressful, even without complaints.
it is a really hard one, because i am sympathetic to them, but i feel now that the situation is not going to be resolved unless we soundproof. and that's not really going to happen i don;t think.

anyway, have left message for landlord, maybe he will surprise me and agree, fingers crossed!!

So this neighbour can hear a child crying from one floor up, through walls and through ear plugs? She's a medical marvel...

I agree - it sounds as if they are purposely listening out for the crying now, and have decided that they will not get back to sleep. How old are they btw? Any chance they will be having their own children anytime soon?

Hellis5am just hang in there - you are nearly there. Things will get easier and when they do and your neighbours have a child, remember to sing the same song to them...just for fun!!

Maisie - well, she is nearly 40 but he is quite a bit younger (or looks it at least!) so i'm really not sure. she once mentioned that they may start trying at the end of this year, but i suspect we may have put them off!!!

thanks wayoftheworld - i will do

Nearly 40 is actually very young I'll have you know, thanks! You need to start blasting a bit of Barry White in their direction - get things moving along nicely so that you can have your revenge (served cold, with a pink parasol and a cherry on top)

This is flat/terraced property living. You are not doing this on purpose and you are doing your level best to minimise any disturbance.

I think they've over sensitised themself to the crying. You say your baby wakes with early morning passers by - I bet they don't because are not fixated with it - just with crying coming from your flat.

Thing is in your attempts to smooth everything over for them do you think you baby has picked up on this and is so now regularly waking?

I say this only because a good friend had a baby whilst living with her sick mother. Sick mother could not be disturbed until about 1 or 2pm (if she was it was hell and friend had a very disorientated and angry disabled mother to deal with along with a baby). Her baby picked up on the fact that mummy came running as the slightest grizzle and it took 3 years for him to sleep through.

Are there any other sleeping options at all?

Cosleeping has worked for us - and in fact ds goes to bed himself and I go later and wake up earlier than him so I'm not sure he realises he's cosleeping. I'm not convinced that it creates bad sleepers but it's certinaly not for everyone.

I do feel you need to get a bit more assertive with them. Once that's over they'll be moaning that they can hear him playing loudly. There will be something else.

I agree you've got to nip this in the bud, you have done everything you can if they don't want to hear their neighbors they need to start saving for a detached.

I have been on both sides of this. We live in a flat with neighbours next door and below.

A few years ago our downstairs neighbour moved in with her 2-year-old DD, and we were woken up what seemed like EVERY morning at 5am, and often in the night too. It was pretty knackering, and at times OH (who is a lighter sleeper than me) suggested saying something.

We never did complain, partly because I was preggers at the time and we realised we would need some understanding ourselves in future.

At some point it just stopped.

Three years on we are still in the same flat with two DSs (aged 6 months and 3 years). They cry in the night and wake up at random hours, and we feel terrible thinking they are waking everyone up, but our downstairs neighbour couldn't be more lovely about it.

However, our next-door neighbour is another story. She complained about ds2 crying in the night when he was one week old, and she has been round a couple of times since then to complain, not always very nicely.

Hellis5am I understand what you are going through! Some days I just want to move out, but I remind myself that it's up to our neighbour to show some understanding too.

I think a baby monitor is a good suggestion, and staying on good terms with your neighbours, as it sounds as though you are trying to do. Hopefully at some point your DS's sleeping will improve, and they will be glad to have you downstairs and not some unfriendly type with a loud stereo.

Hellis5am - I have a similar problem with a neighbour below complaining of my 2 DS's.

DH and I are buying our property whilst she is in rented. We have spoken to the Council about this situation becuase like yourself we don't get the children to make a noise on purpose. From their point of view there is nothing she can do because it is noise from a child/baby who is not doing it on purpose.

I don't know if that helps but you shouldn't have to soundproof your place at all - check with your local council and then next time she complains just tell her the facts.

Stay strong

yes thanks, magna, i did check that out at one point myself because i was worried about being evicted or something. i feel they are in a stronger position because they own their flat iyswim, and i think she does too. altho how much i have caused that by being so subservient i don't know.

giveitago - yes, i undoubtedly think that ds is made worse by us jumping to every noise, i have tried to explain this to the neighbours but i don't think they understand. i used to co sleep but had to stop, ds was waking every hour and is a terrible wriggler and kicker! i know what he needs with regards to sleep is absolutely no other choice, or he won't do it. that's just how he is, he'd much rather be doing anything but sleep. if he is given any leeway he jumps on it, he is a devil. but if he knows that nothing is going to get him out that cot til 6am he is usually good as gold (i say this, because whenever he stays with my mum he regularly sleeps til after 7 as she is very firm with him). of course if poorly or teething he will be disturbed but then there are a couple of nights after when he plays u up and needs somebody to be a bit firm and he sorts it out. but i don't have the freedom to do it here, and if we're not consistent there's little or no point. which is ok, i have accepted that as a condition of flat living, if not ideal. but it is a bit galling to still be getting complaints when i am getting up at 5am to minimise the noise for them, a part of me feels like why should i bother if they'll complain anyway??
i agree completely with your oversensitised comment - that is my opinion exactly. i'm sure even if they were woken by passers by, they'd be able to get back to sleep without much trouble. as i said before, he gets up at 6.30 for work, which MUST disturb her, but she tells me she likes to sleep til 8 or 9 (she works from home) so she can get back to sleep after that obviously. it is a bit difficult to say that to them tho!!

thanks for the support everyone! i feel a lot better for it [:)]

Poor you! That would seriously stress me out.. they can either move, move where they sleep or get some earplugs!

I have twins, 3yrs, who make a load of noise. One of them wakes several times a night, sometimes, and just screams if she's having a nightmare. She also screams and cries throughout the day if she gets frustrated or angry with things. I always worry about neighbours and feel embarrassed, but what can you do?!

I love the way she says that '5 is just not acceptable.' What EXACTLY do they want you to do? Insane! EARPLUGS! In fact, maybe buy some and giftwrap them.

Maybe you should tell her that you are upset by her complaints, and that she will have to either speak to your husband or your landlord. You really should not be made to feel uncomfortable in your own home!
xx

Hellis5am - Please don't think they are in a stronger position. I really don't think you could be evicted for the noise that comes from a child - in my opinion the press would have a field day with a story like that.

I know I have felt like being bloody minded and sticking the washing machine on at silly o'clock because her downstairs has annoyed me by banging becuase the DS has ran from one room to another then she would have a reason to complain.

You said that whilst they were away your DS slept really well - silly question but is one of them nipping to the bathroom and actually disturbing? The reason I ask is because for DS1 my neighbour was working and she used to go and draw her curtains in the room below my DS at 5.30 every weekday morning and it actually disturbed him.

well i have wondered that magna, i'm pretty sure that they have disturbed him by getting ready and going to bed - as in, he has stirred and when i've gone in i can hear them. it could just be coincidence but it's happened more than once. half their bathroom is over his room too. he's a light sleeper, it's possible, which would explain why they're then so quick to hear him if they're already awake, and find it hard to get back to sleep. but she has never said that, and if they do, i can't ask they don't go to the loo and i doubt they'd admit they were partly responsible for his waking!! so either way there is little i can do there. i doubt it is every time, even if they have on occasion, i know he is a bad sleeper whatever, especially if afflicted!!

and thanks zeeka, she does have a special way of making me feel like a scolded child, i have to say

If they are by any chance disturbing him it only takes a few times for him to get into the pattern of waking and he knows mummy keeps coming to him.

Maybe if they mention it again say how he is a light sleeper and the slightest noise can wake him, maybe making a joke how you can't flush the loo at night because that can disturb him.

Just keep remembering it is not yours or your DS fault he is a child - it will get better. Hope you have a good night tonight