or are neighbours?

[Hellis5am]

sorry for a long post!

we live in a house converted into 2 flats, on the ground floor. DS's bedroom is unfortunately under the upstairs neighbour's bedroom (and we can't really move him). he is 18m and has never been a great sleeper. we resorted to controlled crying (i know,i know, but it worked great for us!) a long time ago to get him to sleep through and he's not been a massive problem since. there is the odd disturbed night if he's sick or teething or something, obviously, but most nights he sleeps through. however, he does wake early. if all is well it's usually between 6 and 7 (closer to 6!) but when he's teething he is prone to waking around 5-5.30. it's horrible, and he is quite noisy when he wakes, but as soon as i hear him i get him up and get him out that room.

the neighbours have complained before about these early wake up calls when it's happened, and i've assured them i won't leave him to cry (much as i might want to!) and i will move him from the room but they say they can't get back to sleep after he wakes them. i thought i woke up fairly quickly when he did but this morning i woke to him at 5.15 and have just seen the neighbour who complained about being woken at 4.55 and having to listen to him cry for 20 minutes. I am so surprised that i didn't wake up before that, i must've been in a real deep sleep, and i'm not sure what i can do about that! i assured her it wasn't deliberate and that i did make a conscious effort to get him up and out as quick as possible when i heard him. she is quite unhappy, says her boyfriend is working til 10 at night at the moment and really can't be woken at that time.

when it strated getting light in the mornings, it took DS a while to adjust and so he woke early for some time then and we got complaints most days. they have been away most of the summer (when of course he slept fine!!) and only got back this week, when (of course!) he has had a bad bout of teething. i explained this but she said that either we ought to ask the landlord about sound proofing the ceiling of DS's room or sort it ourselves. i will ask the landlord but i know he will laugh me out of the room, the way he is. so is the onus on us to do it?

i completely understand that it is horrible to be woken at 5am (i also hate it!) but i really don't know what to do. should we pay for sound proofing if the landlord won't, bearing in mind it's rented and we won't be here forever (they own their flat)? also, from what i have read, it is more effective to sound proof a floor in these cases, so do we offer to pay for that? we don't really have the money at all.

DH is of the opinion that they are complaining a bit much, we have done everything we can (black outs, soft furnishings, later bedtime, getting him out as quick as poss etc) and he is a baby and it won't be forever. he is quite horrified that people would complain about a baby, but is from a different culture where nobody would. i agree really, but am slightly more sympathetic to them, and also don't want some kind of neighbourly feud! i already have found myself hiding to avoid them on occasion!! today she told me she knows there is nothing i can do about him waking 6ish and they will deal with that as he gets up at 6ish anyway for work, but 5 is not acceptable. But i can't do anything about him waking at 5 either!

DS is a real handful as it is, so i am really tired myself and find the whole thing quite stressful. the neighbour has upset me today (probably because i'm over tired!)and i find i stress about it a lot.i would LOVE a child that slept 12hrs a night but he just isn't one of those and is a light sleeper. i am actually now desperate to move because of this problem, despite the flat being otherwise perfect for us, which seems a shame. we also want a 2nd child but i'm worried about that too!

i try very hard to be a good neighbour and feel that this is one of those difficult situations that come with living in flats. i totally understand their being upset but really feel that us having to pay to sound proof a rented flat for a transient problem is a bit much to ask. i really need some objective opinions!!

AIBU or are they? does anyone know any legalities as to who the onus is on? or anyone been in a similar situation with suggestions?

I think they are being unreasonable and you are trying hard to cope. All the stress about running to baby as soon as he wakes mustn't help any of you.

There are a few issues -

1. the neighbours need to be more tolerant and accept that the baby is waking and you are doing your best.
   If they have an issue with sound-proofing then the onus is on THEM as they have the issue not you. They can lay soundproofing in their bedroom and a thicker carpet. They own their flat so it is up to them to make the investment. What if you move out and students move in?

2. if you feel you're not waking to your son then can you not put a baby monitor in your room so you wake sooner or are sure you are waking sooner (rather than relying on the neighbours telling you)? If you are down the cellar steps then they probably will be getting the sound before you.

3. Working out why baby has started crying more and is not self settling - a whole new thread perhaps?

Good luck with this - but whatevery you do - don't be paying out for soundproofing and try not to let the neighbours make you feel uncomfortable living peacefully in your home. Other people can be a lot worse than you.

We lived next door to a baby at one point and were both working six days a week. It wasn't a fab sleeper and we were often woken at odd hours.

At absolutely no point would I have gone round to complain. Babies cry, it's what they do. My other half is notoriously grumpy when tired and his only reaction was 'Those poor parents, they must be exhausted'.

Your neighbours are being ridiculous.

Earplugs. Very cheap. Stick some through the letterbox. They are BVU.

YANBU at all. If you could have your baby not cry, then that is what you would do. Babies, unlike loud stereos or TV or dancing late into the night, are part and parcel of life.

Do your upstairs neighbours have carpets? If not, then they could well be in breach of their lease (most stipulate no hard floorings in upstairs flats) and installing them would help the soundproofing tremendously.

I haven't been up in her flat for a while but i believe she does have carpets, not 100% tho.

I actually did buy them ear plugs when we did the controlled crying when he was little (and a bottle of wine and chocolates!) and they were grateful. she says the ear plugs don't work now, nor does putting cushions on the floor which they have apparently tried, nor does playing music, which i do hear her do.

I agree the secondcoming, it is a long time and early, and i was really sorry but it wasn't deliberate. we sleep with the door propped open. i am not sure, if she says it was 20mins then i'm not gonna argue, and i feel really bad for DS if he was there for 20 mins with noone coming to him, but he wasn't distressed when i did get to him and as far as i know it's never happened before (it has not been mentioned by them anyway!)i usually wake at the smallest noise but who knows? i might get baby monitors just to be sure, as suggested.

the basement is only slightly damp (it is an old flat), we are not really meant to use it as a bedroom because of ceiling height or something apparently. my main issue is the stairs, they're concrete and the carpet is thin, so not really suitable for a baby, especially when he's in a bed he can get out of. when i say perfect, i mean in terms of location and size atm, and we've got a little garden which is good for DS. to be actually perfect, there'd be a WHOLE lot of differences!!

In the grand scheme of things, your baby won't be a baby for long, so this won't be a long term problem.

I would second the idea of getting a baby listener.

Your neighbours just need to suck it up tbh as it is one of those things isn't it, babies cry!

You sound like a lovely neighbour by the way. x

Your neighbours are obvoiusly very light sleepers and that is their problem not yours. They are BVU. You have done everything you can to help the situation.

I've been in the same situation as you. There is nothing you can do about it and the neighbours will have to accept that is par for the course if you live in a flat. You are not being unreasonably noisy in your flat, it is just normal living noises. Don't feel guilty and don't feel uncomfortable in your own home!

Where are you meant to sleep then? Can ds sleep there or is it one bedroom and he's in it?

Whilst i do think the neighbour is being a touch unreasonable, I think if she is genuinely upset I would be doing everything I could to try to move him, if just temporarily. At 18 months he's not going to be in his own bed for a while and by then his waking may have settled down. At 18 months we are not talking about a mewling newborn but a possibly hollering toddler. I know from experience how loud that can be.

yeah, one bedroom mazzystartled. that is one of the good things about it, that we essentially get 2 beds for the price of 1!

thanks tubbyduffs, i'm not sure they'd agree!!

Ah, you see: you have set such a precedent by being so accommodating about their complaining (wine and chocolates?!) that they feel comfortable in continuing.
If you give them another inch in offering to pay for their soundproofing, they will take a mile.
You are effectively saying the fault is yours when it's no-one's. What else do they expect you to do?
If the boyfriend doesn't like it, he can change shifts, or just move.
YANBU

that's what dh says you see, mumi, only a bit more forcefully.
i was just worried that he would be AWFUL with the controlled crying, so thought ear plugs and wine would soothe the way (think the chocolates were a month later for xmas actually). as it was he cried for about 15 minutes for 2 nights then slept through which was loads better than i was expecting.

i don't think dh will let me offer to pay for sound proofing in all honesty. but i did want some other opinions. i am one of those annoying people who let things get to them and feel bad a lot about things i maybe shouldn't - i wish i could just say 'oh well, he's a baby, sorry!' like dh, but i stew on things!!

i actually like my neighbour, which is why i don't want her upset. i don't like her boyfriend, who is relatively new, and who i don't think actually lives there. dh is sure that it is him causing the problems over her and so he should be ignored, but i don't know.

If I was being woken at daft o'clock in the morning every day then quite frankly I wouldn't care if it was disco music or a crying baby - I still wouldn't be best pleased.

Just be grateful they're being reasonable about things and not blasting music till late on an evening.

I really do think you should think about moving your DS out of that room....

I don't think you should pay for sound proofing for them but equally I think they are entitled to feel really fed up.

If you are in the basement with no baby monitor than I can well believe that you didn't hear him for 20 minutes. I also think that you are lucky that they are not resorting to making loud noise at night.

I really think you should move into the room with DS (must be reasonable size if meant to be only bedroom) or move him in with you. Could you swop the living area with his bedroom?

I do think you genuinely sound nice and trying to think of ways to help but they don't know that is the case.

On another note. Do you think perhaps baby is waking up because it is so damp down there? Cold? Dehumidifier maybe?

YANBU - unfortunately, this is part and parcel of living in a flat. I have recently moved into a flat and have a 19 month old DS, who is very much like yours. He sleeps ok through the night with the occasional night waking due to sickness/teething.

He is also an early waker - used to be 5/5.30. Recently have introduced him to the alarm clock and have got him to wait til the alarm goes off before getting him (although this doesn't work all the time!).

In the beginning, I would go and get him as soon as he started crying as I was anxious about the neighbours, but then I noticed that this actually made him worse so being stricter with him was better for both myself and the neighbours in the long run!

sonia77 - ds is not in the basement, we are. his room is ground floor. i think he wakes early when teething, and sometimes in the night. he has always struggled with teeth. only 4 to go!! also, he is light sleeper and his window is on the street so if noisy students/early risers go past i think it wakes him at that time of morning.

moomaa - just out of interest, why would they play v loud music at night? i think they do know i have been doing what i can, i have constantly communicated this.

i do see everyone's point about moving him in with us, but my worry is how long should this last? he will have to go in his own room when he's in a bed for safety reasons and i don't think that's that far off. he can climb out the cot already when not in his sleeping bag, and i suspect only a matter of time before he figures out how to get that off!! then if he's got used to sleeping with us, will he not kick up a fuss? and i assume there can be noisy problems with getting a child to stay in a bed at first? maybe it's just delaying the problem. and if it isn't just teeth and he continues to wake early or in the night til he's a bit older, what then? not passing over the suggestion, just concerned.

to reiterate, it isn't every morning, it does seem to be when he's teething or poorly. when well, i think his natural waking time is about 6-6.30, still too early for me but what can u do?!! and they can cope with this to be fair. i kind of feel that moving an already bad sleeper from room ro room, at different times could be counter productive...?

oh ps moomaa - sorry, the living area is the only way to the kitchen so not really possible. please believe me, if it was safe/feasible to move his bedroom i certainly would.

addictedtocoffee - interesting about alarm clock. i have considered that kind of thing, or one of those light up ones but thought DS too young really. how often does it work for ds, do u think he understands or is just luck/coincidence?

It works most of the time when he is well, but obviously in times of teething or sickness, things don't go according to plan all the time!!

Have also introduced at nap time so that he gets used to the fact that mummy will come and get him when the alarm beeps.

If it's only when he's teething or poorly, couldn't you get a z-bed and sleep on the floor in his room?

Otherwise, I think you should definitely get a baby monitor.

Also, could you try adding a rug/big cushions etc to ds' room, to try to absorb more sound?

i have slept in with him on occasion yes, but sometimes i don't know he's going to wake early iyswim, he'll be fine in the day and otherwise sleep through but then wake 5ish. it's taken me a long time to work out that it's that not just him waking early for no good reason, it just seems to go in patterns which u can only see after an extended period. if he wakes in the night, upset and clearly teething or ill i usually stay in with him, yes.

we have added lots of soft furnishings as that has been suggested to us previously, but thanks. unfortunately it's one of those big old houses, high ceilings, single glaze, it is the worst kind of building for noise!

addictedtocoffee - thanks, am definitely going to try one. fingers crossed!

well, i take your point thesecondcoming, but if that was the only reason and i was otherwise happy to have him in that room, why wouldn't we just make that his bedroom and move to his room?