to believe that decent, fair relationships are the exception to the rule

[GreenasJade]

rather than the norm?

This isn't about a thread but is inspired some currently running.

I have been in an abusive relationship myself and I look at the couples I know and in every single one of them, someone is top dog while the other puts up and shuts up, every single one. I don't actually think decent relationships really exist.

I think if you say YOU are in a good relationship it is probably because YOU are the one getting more out of it.

I don't want a bun fight about this. I just feel so bloody jaded about relationships. Is yours good? Why is it good?

Do any of you have partners who

worry about you it things are a bit tough for you
Who feel sad and try to make you feel better if you are disappointed or sad about something
Who notice you don't look well or look tired and then try to do something to help
Who would NEVER forget your birthday, anniversary or a Christmas Gift because you are so important to them
Who prefer to spend time with you and your dc rather than with their mates

I think if you DO you are severely in the minority and this is not actually a normal state of affairs.

I have never known it . I don't believe it is achievable for the majority.

I have a lovely relationship and DH does all the things on your list and more, as I do for him. I'm thinking now of our roster of close couple friends, all of whom are married and living together and have been for a number of years, and I think all of them also tick the items on the list.

Out of maybe 10 couples, I think there are about 2 who are completely lovely and perfect for each other, respect each other totally as equals etc. There are about 2 couples who I tend to think each party could probably be happier with someone else, not that one party is particularly nasty, just that they seem to have consistent problems relating IMO to just not 'getting' each other.

The rest exist somewhere in between, but very much weighted towards the top end of the scale (I'm thinking on a 7-9 out of 10 kind of way, where the 'perfect' couples are 9 or 10, and the 'not suitable' couples are still at least about 4 or 5, given that these relationships are not bad, they just could all probably 'do better'), which I suspect is where most people are. And that's not a bad thing. Relationships are rarely perfect, but in my acquaintance, they're also rarely bad, and I don't know anybody who is in a relationship where either partner wouldn't do the things on your list.

This is all from the outside looking in of course, as none of us really knows what another couple's relationship is like.

I realise that sounds a bit smug and self-satisfied. I didn't mean it to, I just felt that you said you felt jaded and perhaps wanted some perspective on whether what you had been through was the norm. I don't think it is, fortunately, I think you've been extremely unlucky, which is sad, but I don't think it means you should give up hope.

D

Don't think anyone on this thread sounds smug, it was the kind of thing I was looking for really.

I think it is true to say that ex did some stuff when we were even just dating that should have been dumpable offences but I didn't and I think it was due to not being treated with any respect at all as an adult by my parents so uncaring treatment just the norm for me really.

I do wonder though if there is an element of class to it. I wonder if middle class people are just used to things being "nicer" iyswim? In my jaded thoughts I do sometimes read the posts on MN and think that maybe some of the advice and perspective is from a totally different way of life as sometimes people seem so shocked by things that are so normal to me. Let me reiterate again I DO NOT want a bun fight but this has occurred to me quite a bit.

So sad that someone could feel this way.
I've been lucky, have only had relationships with great men, friends with every single one, still(not many but all were long term).
DH is a dream in every way.
Don't even know anyone who has been in a abusive relationship.
Makes me odd, I suppose?

Such relationships do exist but I wouldn't say any are perfect as that is so subjective. What's perfect for you may not be for me.

My DH would accept that I do the lion's share of house work and it is a source of arguments every now and then, usually followed by him making the effort for a while and then slacking off again.

This happens because he just doesn't think to do things unless I ask him. I on the other hand, feel he's old enough not to be told.

I think this is pretty common although in varying degrees.

I know he loves me and the two issues are seperate. I know he would put me first after our daughter and I know that although he doesn't always show it he does appreciate what I do.

I think it is too simplistic to expect everyone, no matter their background to do the 50:50 thing. I'd love it but I'm realistic, it will probably never happen. To some extent I blame his parents for this. They have always done everything for him and still try very hard to interfere now.

I just weigh up how much we love each other against the other stuff. In my book there is no comparison.

OP you are not that for off in your statment. Considering how 45% of marriages end in devorce tells another story from the above.

But for the rest of 55% of relationships that do servive is not all due to love and attention. Sometimes people are well suited, sumetimes they have the stamina and a good network of people that supports them in trouble, some have a vision of marriage and stick with it -whether good or bad.

I would strongly suggest that you keep yourself out of relationships for a while and spend time with friends and family ( only those that support and love you). Once you build your confidence and hopefully be expect smb to be there for you.

There are a lot of good people out there, dont be put off by the bad ones. But do find yourself first and that will make you stronger.

emptyshell - are you married to my DH? He does this thing where he pats my head and strokes my hair - I call it 'the bear paw' because his hand comes down with such a thump even though he is trying to be really gentle He has got much better since we had DS, has fewer accidents and breaks things less!

Greenas - it is so sad you feel that way :( It doesn't sound as if your parents have really set you a great example of what to expect from a relationship and how to have respect for yourself, so please don't blame yourself. The upbringing we have is what sets us on our path and of course we have no control over that. It is not impossible to reset your expectations though I don't think, it sounds as if you are trying but struggling with doing it yourself.
I have all the things you list in your OP, and I hope I do all those things for DH, I certainly try to.
I get what you are saying about class, but I think actually it is more to do with what kind of person you are (or more acurately what kind of person you are in a relationship with). There are many threads on here, and I know of people in RL who have a very 'nice' lifestyle and relationship on the surface but you get the odd glimpse and see that things are not as they should be.
I have often been really astonished on MN when a poster reveals a crappy, imbalanced and possibly abusive relationship - because you would never has guessed from their previous posting.

I think instead that far, far too many people, particularly women, feel that a shite relationship is better than none.

I am in a good relationship because a) I have a great relationship with myself. I'm happy with my own company, I don't need to be with someone in order not to feel 'lonely' or anything negative b) because of this, my own rule is that I don't put up with or dish out anything I wouldn't put up with or dish out myself c) love is respect.

Once you realise that you don't need a partner doing all this for you in order to be a complete, whole, happy, healthy person, life gets a whole lot better.

I think I feel like that now expat, I like being alone, I actually think I am quite a nice person, loyal, caring etc despite my ex's best efforts to make me feel worthless. I know I am a much better parent, more energy for my dc not being used with my emotional turmoil. I don't actually want to be with anyone at all but this is because I don't think I could ever trust anyone again so it would never work, which is very different from feeling happy with yourself and then being able to have a lovely relationship with someone as a bonus.

You are my opposite rollmops I don't know anyone who hasn't been in an abusive relationship to various degrees.

Greenas - Class is always a minefield. I come from a working class background but consider myself pretty solidly middle class now. I think there are superficial ways in which the middle classes seem "nicer". Some of those ways may help to reduce conflict or give the appearance of caring, and certainly access to more resources makes it easier to paper over cracks. But there are plenty of abusive relationships across the class spectrum, and plenty of rock solid ones too. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a decent relationship whoever you are.

GreenasJade you need to actively try to get out of the circut you are now. Change jobs, house, town...whatever you can afford to do and dont mind loosing.

If dont have a single role model around you, you need to find one. For the sake of your DC especially if you have doughters- GET OUT OF WHERE EVER YOU ARE NOW!! And seek counselling

I don't live near my family, already sorted that one wayoftheworld. We don't see that much of them and the in laws live abroad so they are certainly not in our lives setting their crap relationship examples on an every day basis.

I do think that being on my own with my dc and their Dad being very involved is the best example for them to tell you the truth. I study with the OU and I explain why I am doing that and their Dad sees them regularly and pays child support. I hope we are setting an ok example now. For one my dd will see that you don't HAVE to be with a man to have a successful life and for another my ds will not witness his father treating his mother with such disrespect and think this is how men treat women. I hope I have gone some way to breaking the cycle of our families.

Oh dear, what a very, very sad OP. I'm married to a wonderful man. He's kind, thoughtful, caring, funny, responsible. I trust him completely and he's my best friend. He is happiest when he is with me and our dogs. He was absolutely brilliant when I had cancer and has continued to be so in helping me deal with the after effects. He never forgets birthdays, anniversaries or Christmas and is superb at buying presents. He often sends me funny little texts or emails or messages, just to tell me he loves me. We've been married for 13 years, were friends for a while before that. I have never regretted marrying him. During that time, we've gone through infertility, cancer, doing a Masters while working full time, moving five times, several changes of job and me downshifting to a part time role as housewife and megastar alongside my flexible work from home paid job. His dad is kind and thoughtful, and my dad is kind and thoughtful and gentle too. I know other men too who are kind, gentle and caring, and have been part of happy, successful marriages, and am also proud to know a gay couple who have been together for over 40 years and are still very loving and devoted.

I put any happiness we have down to several factors. Firstly, we did a trial of marriage guidance counselling before we married (part of an experiment by the Lord Chancellors dept, to minimise divorces) - it was brilliant, and gave us many tools to negotiate and sort out problems before they become rows. Secondly, we both lived alone before marriage, and were happy doing so, so were self sufficient, fully functioning people who are both happy in our own company. Thirdly, we are both huge advocates of the "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" - basically we have decided that our marriage is important to us, and we do everything we can to ensure it is a priority - I highly recommend this book as it really worked for me to help shift my thinking. So this means things like keeping promises, putting the other person first, thinking win/win and so on. Making sure you both understand your joint priorities is a very rewarding and sometimes surprising exercise. Fourthly and finally, I respect my husband and he respects me. Without respect, the relationship will not succeed.

I've sometimes wondered if it's a class thing too, just based on the casual way people have mentioned their relationship expectations to me. But then you get abusive tosspots in all classes, so it's just as likely not. If I was to generalise (massively) I'd say that if anything the difference across the classes is that of physical vs emotional abuse.

If crap relationships are all you've ever known, why would you think to expect more though? If you honestly think that a 'good man' is hard to find, it's easy to settle for a less good one. (And I have been there, I'm not being patronising, I promise!)

It's so easy if you've never come across the polar opposite to think that seriously abusive relationships don't exist or are rare, or think that a "good relationship" is a myth or rarity. The problem is that both exist, and both are a lot more common than the people on the other extreme seem to think. (Which is incredibly sad or very very uplifting, depending on which angle you are coming from!) What you need to realise is that you can choose which of these relationships you have. Then the hard part once you've realised it is breaking those internal monologues which tell you you should stick with this guy even though it doesn't feel 100% right, because he's less of a tosser than every other man you've had the misfortune to meet.

All I can say is it is possible to break those thought patterns. The Women's Aid pattern changing course is supposed to be very good. Also counselling, anything which improves your self esteem, keep reading the relationship boards here, (sounds silly but I've absorbed so much here and my instincts are getting better - a LOT better, actually, even if I don't always listen to them. I'm working on that :)), educate yourself on early warning red flags in relationships, but finally, take your time. Be cautious. Go slower than you think you would like. Don't throw 100% of yourself into a relationship, have some time away from the person as well, thinking time, time to do things you like to do which don't involve him. Stay yourself while also being in the relationship - and don't be afraid to ask someone to take a step back :)

Another one here with a wonderful relationship with a lovely, kind, funny, sweet man who would do anything for me. Not all my relationships have been so good though - I had a long-term one prior to this that never felt right although we were good friends to each other, and one prior to that which involved abuse and was very damaging to me. I don't know if it's a case of becoming more confident as to what you're entitled to as you get older or if I was just damn lucky. But what I love about my life now is how kind we are to each other, and how we are always each other's number one priority. I do think about how lucky I am every day. OP I really hope you can find that too believe me it is out there.

Somone once tld me you get treat how yu think you desrve to be treat , I used to think I did not deserve to be treat nice and put up with some really bad stuff of exes Then when a family member told me I would only ever get what I thought I deserved it changed something in me I slowly began to realise I am a good person with lots of good qualities and realised life is too short too waste on being unhappy , now I have my dh who treats me like a princess and I always make sure he knows I think the world of him , the most important thing is that we respect each other and our selves , if you are going t share your life with someone it should be someone who recognises you as the fab person you are you deserve no less.

My DH is all the good things you describe in your op. He's not perfect, but is anyone? I count my blessings every day that he is mine.

However, before I met him I felt exactly the same way as you. My exP's were utterly vile in one way or another..aggressive, unfaithful, self-absorbed..you name it.

Not all relationships are unequal/bad.

YANBU many of my friends have been beaten, verbally abused, had money stolen etc. MANY. My requirements are now extremely high, one sniff of a cowbag MIL, temper tantrum, drinking habit, immature attitude, aggression while driving, I'd be gone. I wouldn't trust a man now for at least a year of no problems, and would never live with a man again. I don't think that's sad, it's sensible.

Our relationship is really good but we have been through some difficult times which have brought us close to the end but we both knew what we had was worth keeping.

Do any of you have partners who

worry about you it things are a bit tough for you always.
Who feel sad and try to make you feel better if you are disappointed or sad about something always.
Who notice you don't look well or look tired and then try to do something to help always.
Who would NEVER forget your birthday, anniversary or a Christmas Gift because you are so important to them have never forgotten and never would.
Who prefer to spend time with you and your dc rather than with their mates always.

I think if you DO you are severely in the minority and this is not actually a normal state of affairs. Really sad that you think that.

I think the first 2 items on the list are most important because they suggest the person actually cares. The others could just be a case of being extra busy or absent minded.

I feel awful adding to the list of people who say yes as I have no wish to make you feel sadder. My DH and I have this too, as do my friends (apart from literally about two). I'm not saying we don't fight or have times when we feel out of touch, but ultimately I feel that we are a team and a family and both really want to be and to stay married. I know this can change but for now (11 yrs married) this is how it seems. One thing I noticed is that all of my friends husbands seem to really respect their wives and feel lucky to have them, and they are very equal partnerships.

I hope this thread helps you see that it is possible to find a good'un! I agree with others about having high expectations from the start of a relationship, cos they won't change for the better over time!

See that's the thing, I don't think I have ever been with someone who felt lucky to have me, think it has been me that drove every relationship, never gave them time to chase me in case they didn't and the ones who did I didn't want anyway. Best off alone I reckon.

What about your friends and family? Do you ever receive praise from them? Has anyone ever told you what a great friend, doughter, mother.. you are??

If you dont have this kind of encouraging enviroment, you can't look at yourself and feel better.

See if you can change something about yourself and your enviroment now that things are calmer. And than try and build upon it.

GreenasJade

You asked -

do any of us have partners who:
worry about you it things are a bit tough for you
Who feel sad and try to make you feel better if you are disappointed or sad about something
Who notice you don't look well or look tired and then try to do something to help
Who would NEVER forget your birthday, anniversary or a Christmas Gift because you are so important to them
Who prefer to spend time with you and your dc rather than with their mates.

You've seen the answers from MN. It is possible.

You are so articulate and you have actually encapsulated the few secrets of truly happy partnerships - consideration, affection, empathy. The rest is icing frankly (tho' sex is nice!)

If you keep that shopping list close to you, and meet someone who doesn't match up to it, ditch them and move on. You need to believe a decent man and happiness are possible and that yes, you are worth it.