CB - alternative solutions?

[CardyMow]

If cutting CB in the way that has been outlined is unfair, how else could/ should the government save money on this benefit?

I ask this because a columnist in the Daily Fail (I ^know!) said that he would rather they stopped CB for dc at the age of 16yo, regardless of whether they are still in education or not.

I always thought that the reason CB was paid to 19 was because, if, like our family, you are caught in a cycle of very low wages (£16Kfor a FT job), the only way out is more education. If you take away CB for poor people, they will also lose their TC's, and theefore have a dc in FT education that they get NO income for, and are therefore unable to feed or clothe them. It was done because otherwise, these DC would HAVE to go out to work FT, just to have money to eat, thus them also being stuck forever in a very low paid job, with no chance of bettering themselves.

Surely education is the way OUT of the benefits trap? But many more dc will be forced to leave school at 16 to work in min wage jobs if their parents cannot feed them while they gain better qualifications.

It would make any form of further education the preserve of the rich, surely that is a step too far back in time?

While I agree that the way of administering this CB cut needs to be fairer and based on household income rather than one earners tax bracket, surely if minimum wage is £5.85 p/h, then a lot of the country earn barely more than £12,000pa for a FT job, so wherever you are, whatever you are doing, £42K is a HUGE income...Why shouldn't CB be cut for anyone with a household income of £34K pa? My family certainly wouldn't need CB if we had an income of £34Kpa.

I thought that the actual statistic was that 15% of taxpayers pay tax at the higher rate, and that nobody has actually released the figures for how many child benefit claimants will be affected by this - it might be more or less than 15%.

miffy jane - article on exactly this point in today's telegraph. a woman whose single mother friend has a part time job but when she adds on all the ctc and wtc hb etc etc the friend admits to having a net income which if she were working for the lot would mean an income of £70k! yet she works a mere 18 hours a week....

if this is true it's unbelievable!

my mother was a war refugee and she just taught us to make do and mend. she was horrified when i was a studen t and signed on.

we are a very different society from even that in 1983 and i am NOT a raging fascist. i am someone who does 3 volutntary jobs one at the CAB. so i have apretty clear understanding of people's troubles trials and tribulations etc

But private school is not a necessity. Even if people on low incomes only had one dc, private school would be unacheivable. Private school fees are a luxury of the rich, and only a choice at all to HRT payers. If losing CB is going to hurt you that badly...don't send your dc to private school!

There's a world difference between the "hurt" of losing luxuries and the real hurt of being made to struggle financially.

I have always been conservative with money, the only debt I have is a modest mortgage on a small house.

I have worked hard to ensure that we don't struggle as a family and although losing CB won't push us into poverty, it will mean looking over our shoulders at the end of each month.

Perhaps I do earn too much to recieve CB but I honestly believe that the goverment (and many lower earners actually) think it'll have zero affect on people like me - they are wrong.

*receive

loudlass. Many higher rate tax payers don't have the choice of private school. The lady above whose child is at private school said her household income was over 100k and higher rate tax kicks in around 44k I believe.

Those paying higher rate tax with an income in the 40,000s are unlikely to be able to send one or more DCs to a private school costing 4000 per child a term as well as paying rent/mortgage. Whereas if you earn less than 40k and have a bright DC you can always try applying for a bursary at private school.

This is the misconception that I find frustrating. There is a perception that people on 45k have an enormous disposable income to pay for private schools, detached 4 bed houses, holidays, flash cars etc and it simply isn't the case. Where I live you couldn't even get a mortgage for a 2 bed semi on a salary of 45k.

Loudlass, you are ill-informed! I am not rich but choose to sacrifice certain things so I can send my DC to private school. It is not a necessity but I want to be able to give them the best start in life so they get a good job and earn a good salary. I know it doesnt buy you a guarantee but it helps. I am not complaining about losing CB but I contribute taxes for education, NHS, benefits for many and I dont use any of it. However I understand in a decent, moral society we should pay taxes to look after those people who are unable to work there are many who are milking the system and it shoud be those people that are targeted not people like me!

Miffyjane - I agree. 45K in London and the surrounding areas is not a high salary when compared to house prices etc and it will hit those people in particular. I am happy to give my cb to others if truly deserved but I personally think it is either those who 'choose' not to work when they are able to or those who are very rich and can hide their taxes that this makes our system so unfair.

Did you read the article from Bob Crow re taxing all text messages which would pay off the deficit - I thought that was a workable idea given that people will still send millions of texts whether they cost more or not and then we would not have to make drastic cuts to all of our services as the Tory govt propose. Also I dont really get why it has to be so deep and so sharp in a short period of time. It is like us saying I have a mortgage over 25 years but I am going to pay it off in 5 years!!!!! It doesn't make sense!

While £45K may not be a massive income, in LOndon and the SE, £12-16K isn't either. Especially for someone in London or the SE. Not everyone who claims some form of benefits is 'chosing not to work', a lot of them ARE working, FT, but cannot support their families on their income alone. You say you choose to sacrifice certain things to send your dc to Private school - would you suggest we sacrifice our rent money, our food money or our electric/gas/water money in order to do that? Those sort of sacrifices are out of the reach of many many people in the UK.

Why do people seem to think that if DP is earning £16K pa we can't possibly be living in the SE where mortgages/ rents are so high...? If I hear once more that £45K is not a huge salary in the SE/London, I may have to scream! It may not be a huge salary in comparison to those earning £150K, but to those earning £16K in the same area, it damn well is no matter which way you try to say it!

You would be amazed at the things you can't afford on £44k if earning that £44k means living in or commuting to London

Try living in a town whee a lot of people do comute to London...and earning £16K...when childcare rates and rents are at London prices, thus pricing local workers out of childcare.

loudlass - if you are earning 16k don't you qualify for government help towards childcare costs?

Well I agree, Loudlass, the whole situation particularly with regard to housing is completely out of hand in London and the SE. Presumably you get some help with childcare (and housing?) on £16k?

I hasten to add, I do understand that losing up to £2K a year will affect anyone, regardless of their income, and while it this cut in particular won't affect my family, the way it is going to be administered is patently unfair to single parent HRT payers, or couples with a SAHP and one HRT payer. I'm not blind, I can see that it's unfair.

I'm just sick of people saying that an income of £45K is not huge for London/SE. When it's almost 3 times what DP brings home in the SE for sloging his ruddy guts out. It almost feels as if people are saying that because he only earns £16K, he isn't working as hard as someone on £45K. WHich is, I'm afraid to say...total crap.

I do understand Loudlass. Do you not get any tax credits on top of that?

We would not get help with childcare if I went back to work, because DP works...and it wouldn't be of much use anyway, because there is NO local childcare for a 13yo with SN. But we don't qualify for carers allowance because DD's sn aren't severe enough to get DLA, but are severe enough that she can't be left home alone for 3 hrs after school. Plus nursery fees are £52/day, and after school club for the DS's is £20 a day (for 2). You only get up to 80% of your childcare paid of £300/wk..IF your income is LESS that £16K total. We would only get 50% of £300/week paid. I can't earn that much!

We do get (some) help from HB or we would be homeless, in fact the majority of the 'benefits' and help we get IS for our rent. We are meant to be moving to a larger house, but we have decided no matter how much too small this one is, we have to stay put until April next year when they change the HB rules. We may yet be homeless...

Yes, we get some tax credits. Without that we would not survive. What wories me is that these CB cuts are just the tip of the iceberg, they have already said they will cut CB FOR ALL dc over 16yo, which instantly prevents us from suporting our dc through a-levels or vocational courses post-16 at colege, as HB and TC's will also stop. WHo's to say that the reason they won't administer this CB cut through the TC system isn't because they are going to get rid of TC's?

Loudlass, could you possibly get an au pair to cover the end of school-parents home bridge? That's exactly the sort of work they like because it leaves them plenty of free time to go to college in the daytime.

£44k sounds alot until all the outgoings such as 40% tax, National Insurance, Pension contributions, Car Road Tax, Insurance, Council tax for both of us, mortgage payments and all utilities payments each month plus fuel to get to work and back and obviously food for the family (we are a family of 5 but eldest lad is at university). My middle daughter is at college and gets her CB paid directly to her and gets no other help. We also pay her bus pass each month which costs £40

My youngest son will be 11 in the year that CB goes, the time we will need it more than ever as he starts senior school with all the uniform costs that go with a normal state senior school plus dinners and trips to France which we will be expected to fully fund as we get no help.

I am trying to find work to fit in with school term-time and holidays and have had to go back to being a Registered Childminder (I was hoping to have a career change) but I've had no enquiries yet. Hope it comes very soon or Christmas will be cancelled.

We do not go out, we shop in Aldi and Lidl, do not go on foreign holidays and are having to pull in very tight next year when Tax credits are stopped for us yet they are making DH pay more National Insurance

Get rid of these people who are getting CB for children abroad, ones who do not contribute to the country in that way should not get a penny. People earning £88K should not have CB either.

Loudlass, I do understand what you are saying about how it feels as though people assume you don't work hard for the income you have. I also get extremely angry at the constant references by politicians to not penalising 'hard working' people' who are deemed to be hardworking merely because they earn more than DH and I do. But, honestly, with only a couple of exceptions, I don't think anyone here has actually said that have they? As I say, I do sympathise with you. We are also in the SE. We earn around £25000 between us. The only reason we can afford to live here is because we have lived in this house for nearly thirty years and prices have rocketed in that time. If we were starting out now, there is no way we could afford to live in this borough. Whilst we understand and accept that £45000 seems a enormous income compared what you ( and we) earn, it is still not a massive income for people living in this area of the country. In my borough, for example, an income of £45000 would not even get you a mortgage that would allow you to buy a one bedroom flat here let alone a family home!

The CB situation will not affect us, as DC2 will have left college by the time the change comes in and in any case, we earn way less than the higher level tax rate. I am concerned though, about what will happen regarding the NI contributions for SAHM who lose the cb? when I was a SAHM, if you were in receipt of CB for a child under a certain age, they would credit you with NI contributions so that you could still get a pension. What will happen to these women now? Will they lose their entitlement to the NI credit? That will have a dreadful impact on our future elderly population.

Hello,
Child benefit cuts are an insult to stay at home mums, because another couple can earn nearly twice as much and still get child benefit. How is this fair? I wish David Cam would explain
My partner works away at sea doing a dangerous job and my children and I spend lots of time worrying about his safety. It helps that I am around for them.
I hope there is a march planned.

I'm still struggling to understand how we have got to this point where (at least in London and the SE) employers are happily employing people to work long hours for wages that come nowhere close to allowing them to live without substantial help from the state, where landlords are happily charging rents that working people can't pay without substantial help from the state, and where even higher rate tax payers earning twice the national average can't afford to buy their own homes. It's completely insane, and really really worrying.

Duchesse - An Au-pair is not an option for us as TC's will only pay childcare to an OFSTED registered childcare provider. And don't you have to have somewhere for them to sleep? .

Mum2Luke - Low-wage earners get no help with the things you have mentioned either. School meals cost us £27 a week for the 3 dc. School trips - DD cannot go on the FRench exchange that the vast majority of her school year are going on because we can't afford it and the school's discretionary fund will only pay for it if the child is in receipt of free school meals. Secondary school uniform - DD grew 5 inches and went through 4 clothes sizes in her first year at Secondary school. Who had to pay for each replacement set of uniform? Us. With no help.

Yes, I do understand that you can barely buy a shoebox round here for an income of £45K. £16K might buy the lid. .

ZephirineDrouhin - MINIMUM WAGE. Is the answer to your question. It has artificially held down wages and reduced competition between employers that used to result in better wages even for menial jobs.