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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

CB - alternative solutions?

456 replies

CardyMow · 05/10/2010 11:08

If cutting CB in the way that has been outlined is unfair, how else could/ should the government save money on this benefit?

I ask this because a columnist in the Daily Fail (I ^know!) said that he would rather they stopped CB for dc at the age of 16yo, regardless of whether they are still in education or not.

I always thought that the reason CB was paid to 19 was because, if, like our family, you are caught in a cycle of very low wages (£16Kfor a FT job), the only way out is more education. If you take away CB for poor people, they will also lose their TC's, and theefore have a dc in FT education that they get NO income for, and are therefore unable to feed or clothe them. It was done because otherwise, these DC would HAVE to go out to work FT, just to have money to eat, thus them also being stuck forever in a very low paid job, with no chance of bettering themselves.

Surely education is the way OUT of the benefits trap? But many more dc will be forced to leave school at 16 to work in min wage jobs if their parents cannot feed them while they gain better qualifications.

It would make any form of further education the preserve of the rich, surely that is a step too far back in time?

While I agree that the way of administering this CB cut needs to be fairer and based on household income rather than one earners tax bracket, surely if minimum wage is £5.85 p/h, then a lot of the country earn barely more than £12,000pa for a FT job, so wherever you are, whatever you are doing, £42K is a HUGE income...Why shouldn't CB be cut for anyone with a household income of £34K pa? My family certainly wouldn't need CB if we had an income of £34Kpa.

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Theincrediblesulk1 · 07/10/2010 22:19

your example is only what the mp's do! not that far fetched!

Obnoxio · 07/10/2010 22:24

Not MY MP's. I voted BNP.

CardyMow · 07/10/2010 22:25

Peppa-I would be in minus figures BEFORE I had paid all my childcare - Nursery alone would cost more than I can earn, let alone after school clubs for the DS's and a childminder wiling to have a 13yo as DD cannot be left alone....Hmm

Donkeyswife - I LIVE IN THE SE OF ENGLAND!!! If £34K doesn't go that far, think how far £16K goes??!!

TC is Tax credits.

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Theincrediblesulk1 · 07/10/2010 22:27

Fair enough then, so your basically not represented at all then!

Obnoxio · 07/10/2010 22:28

No. So much for Democracy. Or Diversity.

CardyMow · 07/10/2010 22:28

Oh fuck OFF Obnoxio. And why am I not surprised that you voted BNP? If you don't like the tax system in the UK, then do us all a favour and take your bigoted arse out of the country and emigrate. I don't live a champagne lifestyle on a beer income, I live a teetotal lifestyle on a beer income. Had the DC's when we could afford them circumstances changed should I have had them adopted??

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minimathsmouse · 07/10/2010 22:32

So Obnoxio now admits to being a fascist bully boy. Knew it. Thank you, I was right yesterday.

Obnoxio · 07/10/2010 22:33

Hi Largearse Loudlass. Why the negativity. It would appear diversity is always celebrated and embraced except when it comes to peoples' opinions.

That, chuckles, makes you a bigot.

Theincrediblesulk1 · 07/10/2010 22:35

Hay The great thing about Briton is that we are free to vote how we want, i don't agree with the BNP but that doesn't mean i don't think they have a right to campaign or a right to have people vote for them.

If you don't like someones view just see what they have to say, and walk away with your own views firmly in your mind, pay no attention if you don't like him.

minimathsmouse · 07/10/2010 22:39

In light of the fact that CB has traditionally been paid to women to ensure their children were fed and clothed, because of men with opinions like yours. I gather you are working class and proud of it, well without your ancestors CB would never have been created.

It was paid irrespective of a husbands earnings because certain men, usually from a background such as yours, pissed their wages up the wall.

So girls it looks like we have obnoxio to thank for ever receiving a penny in CB. It isn't just his absorbitant taxes that have contributed.

You got a problem, take it to mummy and daddy.

SAAS1963 · 07/10/2010 22:40

woman after my own heart gin4me!

CardyMow · 07/10/2010 22:42

I appreciate diversity. I also appreciate you have your own opinion. I just strongly object to your opinion.

Will you answer what I should have done with my children when my circumstances changed? In a way that could not have been foreseen? Put them in care - thus costing the state an awful lot more money than they are giving us at the moment? Or should I have smothered them so as not to burden your pocket?

Could I also have predicted that my DD would have multiple needs and still be unable to be left alone at almost 13yo? Or that my youngest ds has chronic asthma and a muscle problem that means he also needs extra care. None of which we get any additional money for, as in the grand scheme of things, compared to a lot of disabilities, they are 'relatively minor'.

Yes, Obnoxio, I may be 'bigoted' but only towards small-minded people who cannot see that other peoples lives have not necesarily run the same smooth (lucky?) paths as their own.If that makes me a bigot, then fine

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Theincrediblesulk1 · 07/10/2010 22:46

Myself and dh have always worked, he is now very ill, and needs me to care for him. Is this not what we paid into the system for?

Obnoxio · 07/10/2010 22:52

Of course you object. But secretly, deep down, you agree. And there are many like you. Never overt in what they say, always looking over their shoulder before they mention 'immigrants'. We all know what an Orwellian State we currently reside in.
I'll keep mum.

I digress.

Again, what people do with their children are thier own problem. That said, it would appear that many here have made, and contributed, to their problem. Lets agree that we have all had approximately eleve years of education, with the potential for higher education. And out of that, comes a person who's 'skills' are suitable for only menial work. What a lazy fucker.

Eugenics?

Mima1 · 07/10/2010 22:59

Coming late to this thread (admittedly not reading every single post so apologies for repetition,) I see lots of people mentioning an income of £44,000 as high but little recognition that income tax, NI and basic pension contributions remove at least £10,000, while childcare costs for just one child at day nursery (to enable someone to work in the first place) are about £7-8,000 per year.

All this takes the 'high income' down to a take-home/useable income of £26,000. Strangely same as the maximum benefit cap! As a reward for their industry, the ?just over the limit? 'high earner' loses child benefit, pays all the incidental costs of working; travel, work clothes, higher food costs through less time to shop/cook, struggles and juggles child and employer time and generally experiences very considerable levels of stress!

I consider single parents to be worst hit by this ridiculously unfair policy, followed by working parents (married or unmarried), where one earner is a HRTP and the other partner working and below HTRP.

Taking families with three chn as an example, both the above groups will lose i.r.o £2,500 a year. The HRTP will have to earn in the region of £4,000 extra to replace this within the family budget.

Married SAHM's are being promised eventual compensation by a transferable tax allowance which could actually make them better off if husband is a HRTP - saving around £4,000 pa from the family tax budget (not to mention being a nice windfall for married households without children!)and of course we all know that high income households lucky enough to have both partners hovering below the threshold get to keep all their CB, even if they have just the one child.

Moving beyond the obvious single parent issue, how on earth can a system where a family earning say £60,000 a year (say HRTP on £44,000, partner on £16,000), who may be paying two or three sets of daycare and after school club fees in order to work and with a likely household income left after tax/NI/childcare of £36-£38,000 (be told they have 'broader shoulders' to absorb this loss than a family earning £86,000 (lets say with one child at secondary school and no childcare fees, a likely household income of £79,000?

I appreciate these must all seem huge amounts to families on benefits, low salaries but families in the middle income bands do not get tax credits, support with childcare or assistance with school meals, milk, clothing, fees, trips, concessions etc. Once tax, NI, the costs of going out to work and all these extras are factored in, the difference between benefits/lower salaries and middle incomes is far less than is being touted to justify this policy.

How to move forward? - keep CB as a universal benefit but maybe introduce a reducing rate per child - £20 for first, £15 for second, £5 for third £0 for fourth and beyond.

Raise the tax rate slightly for all to keep CB as a universal benefit. We are losing sight of the fact that children are not ours and ours alone but our future society and workforce. Raising children well costs much more than the current CB rates so parents are already making huge sacrifices for the greater good. This should be recognised and the existing support continued.

I suspect neither of these is likely; the government probably have higher tax rates up their sleeve anyway so my final pref. would be for CB to be means tested on a combination of household income, number of children, childcare costs (if this is too tough to administer then bundle it up with tax credits).

Phew - glad to offload that lot!!

Theincrediblesulk1 · 07/10/2010 23:00

erm i have to disagree! my husband didn't receive 11 years of school, he was left in a children's home by his very sick mother! and his educational opportunities were never given to him, he has 138iq but still he has only one qualification, and his job, before he became sick, earned him 40 grand a year with overtime.
Should he be asking for some money back on that one then, the education he was never given!?

So no not everyone

minimathsmouse · 07/10/2010 23:00

Eugenics, yes why not, couldn't agree more. If I was in charge of the programme I would be investigating ways of ensuring non such as you is never born.

I studied modern History with a special interest in the Holocaust. In Germany during Hitler's riegn, women were held up as examples of purity, they were celebrated for their feminine skills in home making and bringing up children, they were encouraged to stay at home and have children. Call yourself a nz, Obnoxio you are the ill educated, you are not even familliar with your own political ideology.

Obnoxio · 07/10/2010 23:05

I cannot recall calling myself a Nazi. Looks like Godwins Law has struck again.

CardyMow · 07/10/2010 23:09

Ok Obnoxio. My DS1 is curently studying hard at school in order to pass his 11+ and gain entry to the local grammar school. He wishes to become a doctor. Or more precisely, a Neurosurgeon. So in 30 years time, when you have an anuerism through getting apoplectic with rage one too many times (can't be good for your blood pressure), who could be the Neurosurgeon that operates on you? And as my DP will be unable to retire before 70, who will possibly be the person cooking the meals you eat during your recovery period in hospital? Will you still resent the taxes you paid that helped with that Neurosurgeons education, or the tax credits paid while we were bringing him up?

DO I strike you as someone barely literate? And some people leave school with no qualifications because they did not receive an appropriate education, or have additional needs that give them difficulties in accessing the curriculum due to the fact that schools are not set u to hel those with learning dificulties.

An earlier post by you sugested that anyone on low incomes was basically a drunkard who left their dc to run amok while never even owning a book. I can reassure you that I do not fit that stereotype. My 8 yo DS has curently discovered the delights of George Orwell...quite apt given your last post.

There are books everywhere, and my dc frequently go to the park, and the local (free) museums, and occasionally, (once a year) get taken to either the Natural History museum or the science museum. We regularly do science experiments at home because I feel it is an area that is seriously lacking from primary school curiculums. Do I sound like a feckless uneducated waster to you?

And as for Eugenics...I won't even dignify that with a comment.

OP posts:
Obnoxio · 07/10/2010 23:09

For the benfit of the Proles, try Googling 'Godwins Law'.

Obnoxio · 07/10/2010 23:10

"And as for Eugenics...I won't even dignify that with a comment"

Yet you did? Elucidate.

Obnoxio · 07/10/2010 23:13

Off for a shower before bed.

Same time tomorrow peeps.

Theincrediblesulk1 · 07/10/2010 23:14

Thank you qi

CardyMow · 07/10/2010 23:14

Eugenics is the basis of Hitler's ethos. DO I really need to elucidate for you? Would you start with the Jews, Homosexuals, Blacks, Muslims, people with IQ's below 70, or somewhere else? Angry.

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CardyMow · 07/10/2010 23:18

And I see that yet again, you have failed to answer any of my questions. Quite adept at sidestepping questions that you don't want to answer, aren't you, Obnoxio....Finding it hard to actually justify your warped views of the world when faced with someone who doesn't meet your very narrow stereotypes?

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