to think that most welsh people should speak some welsh

[mumof2children]

i am no way fluent in welsh by know very basic welsh.

but sould more welsh people speak some welsh

In, say, a thousand years time, assuming the human race hasn't self-exterminated, do you expect we'll all be speaking hundreds and hundreds of little languages or do you think eveyrone will speak the same language?

I imagine in future speaking Welsh (and quite possibly English, depending on how things evolve) will be a minority interest for scholars, like Latin is today.

octopusinabox - the figure for Welsh speakers for the whole of Wales is still only c20% and that hasn't risen markedly either over 10 years(less than 2%). Most of the population of Wales live in the South-east, which has traditionally been English speaking - the percentage of Welsh speakers will be a lot higher the further West/North you go. I just think the government's response in terms of resources (money) to it is inproportion to the amount of people that want to learn it and I think the people's views should count. There are more Welsh speaking schools in Cardiff and I believe they're on the increase, although not sure what effect budget cuts will have on that, but it should purely be a choice. If you choose an English speaking school putting Welsh pretty much on a par with maths in terms of time spent on it is ridiculous. Where I am people are choosing Welsh speaking schools not because of a love of the language but because of the poor behaviour reported about some of the English speaking schools. It's perceived as giving your child a better chance in life - but only if you end up living in Wales the rest of your life.

Tabliope - its not just about behaviour. If you don't speak Welsh, a lot of jobs in Wales are closed to you or you will be at a disadvantage when applying for them. (And where we are that even includes shop jobs as of course managers want their staff to be able to speak to customers in their language of choice.)

I just think it's all got a bit precious - and divisive.

mumof2children

Dor dy fys yn dy dîn a chwibanna
Ffwcia'i o'ma

Nerdy not heard that in a while!

Hehe...it's the only welsh I know!

Just stupid ignorant comments like hers really raise the hair on the back of my neck!

I am a fluent Welsh speaker, speak only Welsh at home, mostly Welsh-speaking friends, most of my English is practised on mumsnet. I am an avid member of Cymdeithas yr Iaith (Welsh Language Society) and believe strongly ibn bilingualism and that Welsh should be preserved and be encouraged and that all children in Welsh should have the chance to learn Welsh.

However, I would never dictate what people should do. I think it's better to be encouraging.

Nerdy- 'dwi heb glywed neb yn deud dyro fy fys yn dy din a chwibanna' ers talwm iawn iawn iawn! :)

On the other hand- Would you expact people to live in France speak French? I know people who have moved there with only "bonjour" and "merci", and I have to say I do think that's insulting.

'Tis a complicated situation indeed.

I have friends who have moved to France with no french at all but immerse themselves in their local community and so pick it up v quickly - not insulting at all. On the otherhand, if you move and expect to get b without learning and expect everyone to speak English for yo then yes, thats v cheeky!

I think its a bit of a different situation in Wales, or certainly the bits I lived in.

Well I have often thought that it would be a lot easier to learn Welsh if only people wouldn't have this annoying habit of being able to speak English as well

I live in Wales. I have done all my life. Not once in that life has it ever been necessary to speak Welsh, and I have never regretted not wasting valuable brain space on it.

Everyone in Wales goes on about it constantly (mostsly those who can't actually speak Welsh). But no one has ever been able to justify why we should force children to learn something they will never use (unless of course they click "yes" when cash machine asks if they want the instructions in Welsh.

The only answers there seem to be are:

1. Eveyone should learn a second language. OK, true. But can't it be one that is useful, like French or Spanish etc.
2. Our culture will die out. This one reason irratates me more than a bag of itchy powder left in the tumble dryer. Everyone seems to cling to this one thing. This language. As if it simbolises all that had ever occured in Wales. And yet never in scholl did they actually teach Welsh history. Welsh folklore. Or anything like that. So will spending all this time teaching only one aspect of our culture not destroy everything else?

You don't here this same arguement over Gaelic. You don't see people having major arguements over no one in England speaking Anglo Saxon, or the Italians not speaking Roman Latin.

Languages evolve! Since the Neandothols first uttured a few nouns to the complecity of modern languages, they have been moving on.

And yes, small local dialects die out. Because people don't stay confined to one town all there life. People comunicate with others all over the world. And one day, yes one language will be all that is spoken across the world.

And people will all understand eachother. Is that really such a bad thing? We don't have to forget history. That's important. Because even those examples of dead languages like Anglo Saxon are still spoken by historians.

"You don't see people having major arguements over no one in England speaking Anglo Saxon, or the Italians not speaking Roman Latin. "

Right, well, now I'm offended. Welsh is not a dead language, and I should be allowed to use it in my own country. And Welsh is not an useless language- I use it all the time. I've been able to learn more languages on the back of being bilingual from early childhood.

As for you not "wasting valuable brain space" on learning Welsh... I hope you used that brain space well. I didn't realize there was only a finite number of things you could learn.

If you weren't taught Welsh history or culture at school, Atomic, that is a problem with the school you went to. I value the lessons I got on those things, and I remember them still.

ON one point, I do agree: Languages evolve. Welsh is evolving beautifully: It's not a language just for the classroom. We have Welsh music of all kinds (not just for the older generation) and a thriving and progressive literery scene.

Live and let live, TheAtomicBum.

I'm also a Welsh speaker -first language, can go days without speaking English. I think it would be nice if everyone in Wales could say a few words in Welsh but, if given the choice, I would prefer for everyone in Wales to understand that it's a language that's very much alive and to be proud of the language.

I agree with "live and let live", but being forced to learn the language is the issue here, isn't it? That's not living and letting live.

My main issue is with the "should", when, as I have said, I've never actually seen anyone use Welsh.

Perhaps I shoudl rephrase "Brain space". "Learning time" would be more appropriate. You now have to learn it as a GCSE. This means that your children choices about what they learn are reduced. And many schools have also made IT and "double science" compulsery. This means that teenagers in Wales get only one choice in their GCSE's to make.

As for the bi-lingual thing, we're going back to arguement one. Why couldn't a primary school offer French? I had a lot more chance as a youngster to speak this on Holidays than I did Welsh.

Alos, not to sound funny, but please tell me when you "use Welsh all the time?"

North Wales where I live.
I have to go to Chester if I want to hear english spoken at all. All through the Valleys and some parts of the south.

TheAtomicBurn maybe you should spend less time being concerned with the welsh language and maybe go an experience the country you live in?

Now, everyone join in!

Mae hen wlad fy nhadau yn annwyl i mi,
Gwlad beirdd a chantorion, enwogion o fri;
Ei gwrol ryfelwyr, gwladgarwyr tra mâd,
Dros ryddid collasant eu gwaed.

Hallelujah, NerdyFace :)

When I use Welsh all the time is:
At home;
At the school gates with other mums';
When I speak to the phone with most big companies, or government-funded- BT, for instance, has a Welsh service;
When I'm shopping- Lots of the staff in my local supermarket are Welsh speakers.

I live in the mid-west, by the way.

I am perplexed by your argument about teaching other languages except for Welsh in school- Here, the kids are taught English, Welsh, French + 1 other language. And it's a very small state comprehensive, with staff shortages.

I have heard so many people saying, even on mumsnet a few times, that they regretted that their parents' didn't think Welsh was important enough to pass on. I was not going to do this to my children.

I'm nearly fluent welsh second language and I do think its a shame I can't use it anywhere.
The best bit about it was being able to talk to my sister about all sorts without my parents understanding a word, drive them up the wall!
I do think it's good manners to learn a bit of any language of a country you go to.

Nerdy- you're not from Pwllheli are you?

It's the arguement of the close minded and uninformed essentially Bessie!

I grew up Learning English, Welsh, Spanish, German, French and Latin at my school, I retain a little bit of each!

I wish I had paid more attention in welsh, since it would currently make my job hunting a HELL of a lot easier!

I am from llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch Hedgehog!

Hahaha haven't been that end of the world in aggges-I'm always getting asked to say it. I'm from dwygyfylchi

Ooooh my mother used to teach in Ysgol Capelulo, Hedgeblunder... and Nerdy, I have been to Pringles for scones many, many times... :o