to be completely saddened by the effects of paedo-hysteria?

[LadyBiscuit]

I have a lovely, lovely friend in his early 60s who was stepfather to two boys and his partner left for another man which left him broken hearted (as much for the children who he was very fond of as the partner).

He is a lovely, lovely kind and witty man who has a disability (MS) which has aged him far faster than he deserves.

He asked me today if he could send my DS some toys and said how much he treasured my trust in him. I was a bit WTF but he said he has had so many incidents of women thinking he's 'interested' in their children if he talks and smiles to them that he doesn't dare to any more. It's so very sad, he's a lovely, lovely man with a disability and he is becoming more and more isolated because he is worried people will mistrust his motives.

It breaks my heart :(

You've reminded me of the time when we were in South Africa when ds was 13 months old. They (black and white) love chidlren there and don't seem to have the hang-ups we have here. We were having lunch in the Winelands and ds just wouldn't settle (late lunch so the restaurant was quiet). One of the waiting staff whisked him out of his high chair and took him on a tour of the kitchen and the outside round the grounds (and yes, he was out of our sight for a while ) before putting him on the bar where he held court with the restruarant manager and all the staff while we finished the meal.

A lovely memory (unfortunatley one that he is too young to recall - but we do have a photo :)) but one that at the time we commented that too many British people would have been too fearful to allow.

unfortunately a lot of children (and parents!) don't realise the risks on the internet. people think that because they are at home, they are safer.

I don't understand what you mean Agent Zigzag. Forced into action?

If you are out with your kids and they are talking to another adult in plain sight (and that adult is in his garden and your child is on the street (they were talking about his lawnmower ffs - the kid had never seen the old fashioned kind before), that child is is no danger whatsoever. Shrieking at your child is a completely OTT reaction. And very rude to boot.

I've let people hold my kids on buses etc, e.g. leading DD off the bus when I've struggled with the buggy. I know a lot of people wouldn't. I've even let DD sit on somebody's lap before when the bus was packed.

And Algebra's point is a very good one - there was a man convicted yesterday of grooming over 100 children over the internet.

Where were these children's parents? Why were they alone in a room with a webcam connected ffs?

So BeenBeeta, how do men cope who are not in the position of being shielded by their wives: because the wife is working long hours/has left them/has died? Are their children not to have any social life?

AgentZigzag, how are parents forced to take action more than they were 50 years ago? The number of abductions have not gone up in that time.

The new revelations that have been made in more recent years are not about more stranger danger but about abuse within the family or by trusted adults working for regulated organisations: in other words, those people that even the most cautious of you would trust.

There has been no increase whatsoever in abuse by strangers. The dangers of that were known when we were little and was just as great then. (in fact, the only person I know who has been the victim of an attempted abduction was my MIL- that would have been around 1929).

LadyB - stats indicate (if you google it you will see the results) that both vitims AND abusers are more prevelant with diabilities. Last time I looked, which was years ago, for offenders it was to a factor of 2, and children wit hdisabilities rpeorts vary but four times more likely to be a victim is one I recall. Again for uptodate stuff it will be available.

Also since 1991 I have been working in the field of sewxual abuse, both as a group facilitator and with individuals who have abused children and adult females. From obs., groups of up to 10 men will generally have atleast one member with a physical disability.

With stats you have to be careful as few of them distinguish between physical' and learning disabilities. There are specific techniques for working with those with learning disabilities.

yes it is sad but inevitable.

Like most older men without children in their own families, surely any contact with kids would have to occur via their own network of friends and families. So it you really feel that sad about it, then arrange for him to have access to your kids. You can also encourage the parents of any other children in his circle.

You are clearly in a place of trust and confidence in him & he's not a stranger to you - so you are in a position to do something about it.

Perhaps his disability makes a difference perhaps not. Most kids are taught stranger danger for a reason and older men who deliberately seek out the company of young kids .......... well how would you tell the difference between a stranger trying to groom your kids and a stranger trying to make friends with them?

I mean that because it's widely known that these type of offenders exist, that as a parent we're forced into taking at least some precautions against our DC becoming victims of them.

Whether it's educating them about inappropriate touching or secrets, internet safety or not to put themselves into a situation when they're out and about, it would be irresponsible for a parent not to do at least one of these things.

I find it a bit judgemental to say someone is hysterical because they're aware of paedophila and are educating their children on how to avoid these people (the shouting woman was just rude, nothing to do with 'paedo-hysteria').

Cory, there may not be any differenes in the number of offenders or victims, but it's publically known now and to the authorities it's not just a domestic matter. Because the message is out there, most parents feel compelled to act on it, just like SIDS, it's hard to actively go against the advice when you know it might protect your child.

cory - I dont know any men who are single with children and I dont really know the answer to your question.

However, I have had to think hard about being single with my own DSs over the last few days and I guess I would carry on doing what I do now. I don't think I would invite children without their parents to my house though until my DSs were quite a lot older. I alos happen to think some parents might be a bit uncomfortable with it anyway.

My DSs tend to have an active social life outside home and our frends come to see us with their children so the situation rarely arises.

FMM - we live a long way apart at the moment so it's not that easy but yes, we do go and see him when he feels up to it and he does enjoy my son's company - they get on very well.

AZZ - I don't see the difference between being rude and hysterical about risks.

BeenBeta - I think your attitude is very sad.

Pan - thanks, I thought perhaps you worked in the field. There is a big difference between different disabilities though - my friend obviously has a degenerative condition, he's not always been disabled. I wonder how the cause and effect works? Was reading a paper from Oxford Radcliffe this am which was v interesting. As another man, do you think BeenBeta's approach is proportionate/sensible? I don't know but it strikes me as terribly sad - our children need to build relationships with all adults and I also worry for my son growing up in a world like this.

How can childlen learn to interact with "strangers" if they are taught to distrust them all?

Everyone is a stranger until we get to knwo them. As you grow up (and yes, in the earliest years, you need to keep a watchful eye on behalf of your kids) you learn to make your own judgments.

Dh once, with another coach, had to undress and re-dress a load of 5-8 year olds who were literally standing there frozen and immobile (rugby game that got cancelled shortly after it started because a blizzard began). Being dads, they left their own kids till last . Their priority was to get the kids back into warm dry clothing. It was only after they finished that they turned to each other and said "Has your CRB check come through yet?" "No, has yours?".

Fortunately, the parents of the kids are sensible and were just happy that the two guys were more concerned with the health of the kids kids than their reputation and therefore didn't delay the appropriate action (getting the kids changed) to go and find the kids' parents.

"However, I have had to think hard about being single with my own DSs over the last few days and I guess I would carry on doing what I do now. I don't think I would invite children without their parents to my house though until my DSs were quite a lot older. I alos happen to think some parents might be a bit uncomfortable with it anyway."

That's really sad :(

No, I adopt Beenbeta's approach similarly. I ahve the advanced CRB check, and it is in effect a bit meaningless - it could just mean you haven't been caught, as as we know the actual conviction rate is modest compared with the actual abuse ( we know this from convicted people admintting ot the number of victims they have abused, compared with reporting levels.)

dd, now 10, isn't affedcted negatively by me and her mum being v. careful. I don't think! ITt doesn't happen v. often but when it does it doesn't appear as a tremendous issue.

ooh except for the bit about being alone with my own dd, and her friends with her. I do this a bit for pure convenience, and the other mums don't show any concerns.

as an aside, I am really really happy that there is a man who works at DD's private daycare. he's great and DD likes him, it's nice for her to have another male role model.

a lot of kids don't get any, what with rising divorce rates etc. forgive me for going off on a tangent here, but I often wonder if it's a bit of a cycle - boys don't see men in nurturing roles such as teaching, and therefore don't know how to be nurturing themselves?

anyway. I'm sure a lot of people would have a problem with this guy working there but I don't see why he's more of a risk than any of the girls who work there! he's a parent too (unlike most of the girls, who are young) - in fact his DS goes to the same community playgroup as DD.

It's the "quite a lot older" thing I don't get, Been. You say your eldest is 10 years old. In other words, a child who will presumably be going to secondary school next year. By which time (if my experience is anything to go by), most of their friends will be making their own way to school, they will be going into town with their friends for unsupervised shopping expeditions, and very shortly they will start thinking about boyfriends/girlfriends. It will not be long before you have to start trusting to their judgment, rather than to your own.

My own children are 13 and 10 and I am very aware of how rapidly they need to develop their people judging skills at this age. And I would have been very sad if dd's best friend, on top of losing her mum, had also lost all her social life because her friends were no longer allowed to come to her house.

We recently moved house and the guy next door is in his 60's and lives alone as his wife died a few years back.
He introduced himself to me when I was out the front cleaning the windows and the next time I saw him he came out into his garden while I was out hanging up washing with the kids in tow.

His first question was 'Do you mind if I speak to the children? I do love talking to kids - they bring such joy to me heart - I have 5, all grown up, but I have to ask as I am so afraid of others thinking I'm 'interested' in children and the like because I'm not and I think it's so terrible'

I was shocked and said 'Of course you can speak to them. I don't know if you will always get a reply as a couple of them are shy'

Afterwards, I went indoors and was saddened he felt he needed to tell me he was not 'interested' in my kids. :(

Algebra - that's a big concern to me (am a single parent) and sort of what I was trying to say at the end of my last post. I am seriously thinking of getting a male au pair because I really want my DS to be able to build relationships with men - think it's critical for him to have male role models around.

Pan - it's the bit that BB's said about not being on his own with his children and their friends that I find sad which you said you don't do. I agree with Cory - we have to let our children trust their instincts and learn to make choices over a period of time. It's crazy expecting them to suddenly grow up over the course of a summer.

A few years ago I was stood on a very crowded platform waiting to get on a train.

A woman with a child and a pushchair got off the train and walked straight into the crowd without a backwards glance, leaving her toddler stood in the train doorway. There was quite a big gap between the train and the platform and I doubt the child would have been able to get across. The toddler stood there crying for a few moments and then started to scream. There were only men stood around the train doorway (I was stood just behind) and they all stood awkwardly wondering what to do. Finally a bloke in his fifties took the childs arms and lifted him down, just as mum came back.

She went absolutely mad, screaming at him to get his hands off her child, calling him a perv etc etc. The man looked absolutely mortified and the people stood further back couldn't see what had happened so were probably assuming the worse. It was absolutely awful.

I just don't see how this sort of reaction can be in any way in the interests of children. Would the woman have preferred her child to have fallen down on to the tracks? I'm sure all the men stood around would hesitate before helping a child in future, I know I would if I was male.

That's exaclty what I mean about us (as a society) having lost a sense of perspective - when men have become fearful about having any contact whatsoever with other children. :(

OMG Fragola that's awful! poor bloke :(

and poor kid too - feckin irresponsible to leave him on the train like that!!! would she have preferred him to fall down, or maybe get left on the train as it pulled away?!

I've often helped in those situations but I guess nobody challenges it as I'm with my own kids.

sorry - must ahve not made it clear: I don't mind being with my dd and her friends alone. I would mind if dd was on her own with another male who I don't know. That's realistic and poss. a bit sad, but dd is a sort of cautious type by nature in any event.

it's tricky making judgements about other parent's standards. I remember being roundly attacked on here a couple of years ago for explaining my position, and being told I was compromising dd's development. That was tosh then and is still now. She has a really good form teacher who she likes alot, and knows her friend's dads pretty well from being at their houses.

I think that's fair enough Pan. But I would like to think my DS would be fairly safe if he were playing round a mate's house and their mum wasn't around.

fragola/ladyoftheflowers - those are such sad stories. I don't know whether to be heartened that my friend's experience is not unique (and therefore not personal iyswim) or profoundly depressed.