Toddlers and first-class travel ... (again!)

[Asana]

Yes, I know it's been done before (I think I still have the thread about first-class travel by plane with children bookmarked somewhere), but I don't care.

So, traveling to Manchester from London earlier today on a midday train for my sister's wedding(s). 16mo DS is highly strung at the best of times, let alone when traveling for 4hrs strapped into a buggy, so was justifiably dreading the trip. I'd booked 2 first class tickets, figuring that I could take him out of his buggy from time to time and have him sit beside me, vainly hoping that having a bit more space to kick about would help make the trip easier.

To put it bluntly, he screamed the entire way, frustrated at not being able to move around. I didn't want to risk blocking the aisles by walking him between carriages and disturbing more people than need be. Colouring books, an iPod with headphones, cartoons on a laptop, lots of finger food, moving all breakable objects and clearing the table of anything he could lob as a weapon etc did nothing. Whatever I tried, he found a way to make it dangerous/antisocial. Even trying to ignore the bad typical behaviour of a non-speaking toddler coupled with regular finger-wagging, proferring a dummy and even (and this I hate to admit) smacking his hand away when he reached to bang the table with his cup/hands/spoon repeatedly for the umpteenth time didn't help. I was utterly mortified when various people moved away tutting loudly and couldn't bring myself to face them.

We finally got to Manchester and, heaving a massive sigh of resignation relief, started getting our stuff together to leave the train. A gentleman walking to the exit waited for the carriage doors to close before launching into a mini-tirade at the other strangers about his ruined journey, all this in clear ear-shot of me. I wish I'd been the bigger person and let it go, but I opened the carriage doors and said to him that it was rude to talk in such a manner about people within their earshot, that we had all been children once and that I had done all I could to keep DS as quiet as possible. The other people looked away and he went a shade of red before turning his back to me and muttering sarcastically (and I quote) "Well, you obviously didn't do a great job of it." I'm ashamed to admit that I told him that I hoped I would have the good grace of raising my son a lot better than his parents did of him. He walked off the train, and I waited before getting to our hotel before bursting into tears.

The thing is I know how frustrating it must be wanting some peace and quiet on a train journey and being subjected to the wailing of someone else's banshee child, but I really don't know what else I could have done. The worst thing is I have to make the same journey back on Sunday in standard class and keep getting a lump in my throat just thinking about it, to the point where I'm considering using my college grant to book a taxi journey all the way home, with the opportunity of stopping at regular intervals to give DS the opportunity to get rid of as much energy as possible. It's something I can ill-afford, but the thought of having to go through the same thing has me in bits!

I don't really think IW/ABU at the incident on the train, but the whole thing (including and especially the smack) made me feel like a shitty traveler/person/mother. I'm exhausted from the 12hr days at college, the lack of sleep from a DS who still doesn't sleep through the night, the inability to get any work done this weekend, the knowledge that next week at college is going to be hellish, the 9am starts and the thought of another 4 hour journey door to door from Manchester to South London. Apologies for the melodramatic tone, but some Mumsnet words of support, coupled with un-Mumsnetty hugs, would be much appreciated right now ...

Seen both sides of this particular coin

Always remember signal failure at Dunbar, travelling 1st class from London to Edinburgh with the DCs. The train stopped for SIX hours. DS was breastfeeding continuously and DD was screaming continuously. Was a nightmare. I walked up and down the carriage apologising and very obviously trying to entertain her. People were lovely - one nice chap just said 'She's only expressing what we're all feeling".

Tbh, although I do feel for you, I'm not sure how booking first class entered your mind as a good idea. The good in it would not have outweighed the bad for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that babies/toddlers shouldn't be allowed to travel first class, but the point is that those who pay for a more expensive ticket do have higher expectations for their 'travel experience' so they are going to be less tolerant about noise. If you choose to travel first class with a toddler, unfortunately you should be prepared for some level of annoyance if said toddler screams the whole way. A very loud child can irritate anyone after a while (and four hours is more than enough to do it) so I'm not surprised he was pissed off. How he went about expressing that to you, that was out of order. I don't doubt that you did the best you could to settle your LO, but I do think you'll find people are way more tolerant in non-first class sections of the train. With that, your return journey should be much less fraught with difficulties.

FWIW, this is coming from someone who has travelled first class in the past, including one journey with a screaming child opposite me. I played with the LO and held her while her mum went to the toilet, so not all of the travellers you find will be rude, some of us do more than tolerate LOs in first class!

I'm sorry you had such a terrible journey and that you were spoken to so awfully, I hope your trip home is much more fun for both you and your DS. :)

Is there a rail company rule saying that first class is only for serious-looking business folk?

Quite. Am a bit about all the 'people pay for first class tickets for a peaceful journey' type comments. You pay for a first class ticket to get from A to B in a less crowded carriage in a roomier seat - beyond that, you take your chances like the rest of the passengers.

V. cheap earplugs can be bought from Boots to ensure a bit of quite for those lacking an MP3 player etc

erm...first class is public transport too. The clue's in the title.
You did your best; people need to realise that the opnly way to guarantee peace and quiet on a journey is to hire a taxi or drive themselves.

If I really wanted peace and quiet on a train journey, I'd book a seat in the quiet carriage. It's what it's there for.

Although I don't think you are allowed to use your laptop in there, which would defeat the purpose for many people.

Maybe, if there are two first class carriages have one as first class, and one as business. They cost the same and have the same perks, but the business one is for people who want to get on with work undisturbed.

I have travelled several times on the train with my 2 children and i agree that, no matter what you take to entertain them, has little effect, i just try to occupy them with what you can see out of the window, forget first class, and let them wander about.

Also you don't need to buy a ticket for under 5's.
Good luck on your journey home and try not to worry about the looks and comments,i know its hard, but there are normally some nice people travelling and it could be worth asking if you could change seats to a less busy carridge, as with less people to worry about you will be calmer and able to deal with the situation without so much pressure.
good luck

FWIW I'd love to be able to go: "Let's travel first class. Click!" - as opposed to: "Let's check out the first class fares...guffaw! Okay, cattle class it is..."

Glad to see so much support for the OP here, as well as the lovely first-class travellers saying they'd be supportive if they'd been in her carriage.

OP - YANBU

I have recently done lots of train travel on my own with my 17mo ds, standard class on eurostar and then first class on french train (as it was the same price as standard when I booked ).

Standard class on Eurostar was a nightmare as v cramped and ds just wanted to climb over the seat/table/me/other passengers , it was ok when he wasn't tired as we just walked up and down the full length of the train (OP - I really wouldn't worry about doing that, you pass each person only briefly so they get a lot less fed up then all the people sitting around you!) but when he was overtired (as won't sleep on train/in my arms etc anymore) it was a complete nightmare and I did feel sorry for people around me.

First class on the french train was much better as had single seat so nobody sitting next to us, loads more space etc but the main benefit of the french train over uk ones was that they have a play area for toddlers/small children. It's pretty small but other toddlers gather there too so each way ds had someone to shriek at play with and you're not in the main carriage so other passengers don't get bothered - so much more civilised for all concerned!

Anyway OP I'd say go for it on the return journey, walk up and down as much as your dc wants and don't worry too much about other peoples' reactions, after all we all have to put up with other passengers' smells/noise/music/overflowing luggage/rudeness etc etc so a toddler behaving as toddlers do should be acceptable too.

Definitely wouldn't be paying for a taxi journey!

Good luck

I travel by train for work a lot and if i had paid for first class and the whole journey had been cooped up with a screaming toddler I would not be at all happy.But wouldn't have said anything (-just wished a [plague on both ) Seriously i would have lodged a complaint with the staff though not taken it out on you.

I wouldn't bother with first class in future. If you'd travelled in steerage no one would have been the least bit surprised at a child running up and down the aisles and being noisy as it's to be expected.

Those that would complain to train company - what would your complaint be?

Just out of interest as I can't think what they would do about noisy toddler. Offer a sedative??

I cannot begin to fathom why you tried to keep your DS in his buggy for four hours and didn't walk him up and down the train....

But regardless this actually has nothing to do with the class of travel. It sounds like your DS was testing and understandably other people found him so. That would have happened regardless of where you had chosen to sit.

The man was passive and aggressive and then rude and obviously has a huge sense of entitlement of he thinks sitting in first class entitles him to anything other than a bigger seat.

brassband PMSL at lodged a complaint with the staff.

I can see both sides of it. I have been on both sides - travelling with my kids (never first class) and on work business trips (sometimes first class). Think about it from the other passengers POW (and this applies to first class and standard class travelling) - they have to sit still for 4 hours and have to listen to a toddler screaming the whole way.

Also I'm totally confused why you thought it a good idea to travel first class with a highly strung toddler????

Those paying extra for their tickets more likely to be annoyed with you. I think in standard class people less snooty and you might have felt more comfortable about walking up and down carriage.

Also not sure why he was strapped into buggy for whole time?

I hate travelling with toddlers so when the DC were little we'd only ever travel by car after 7pm (so they would sleep) - TBH a daytime car journey would be even worse as you have less space to entertain them.

So calm down, have a hug, don't stress about what he said.

I have been chastised in First Class for much less than that (eg. listening to a voicemail on my phone... a gentleman wandered up to me an had a massive rant about how it was supposed to be a quiet coach and he could "hear me from all the way over there" apparently) and have been tutted at for sitting next to a suited gentleman while I was dressed in a pretty scruffy jeans, hoodie and rucksack combo. But you get twats in all classes of all modes of public transport, it's not limited to first class on trains.

I don't think you were being unreasonable at all. Public transport is exactly that - nobody should be surprised that they can't cherry-pick their fellow passengers. As others have said, all First Class really entitles you to is a headrest cover, a larger seat and as much weak tea as you can throw all over yourself drink.

A couple of people have posted that you don't need a ticket for the under fives, which I believe is true, but I'm sure that without a ticket they are not entitled to a seat should the train get packed, they will be expected to sit on your lap. Fine for a short journey, hellish for a long one.

I have to travel all the time for work, sometimes I go in 1st class sometimes not. I think if you were in standard class and I couldn't be bothered to help you entertain the baby or had a lot of work at least I could just move carriage. Whereas when I book first class it is because I need to sleep, or have a great deal of preparation, and so any disturbance like this means you have paid the extra and either have to put up with it or move to a standard carriage which of course you would resent when you paid so much for the ticket.

I definitely don't think toddlers should go in first class especially if you knew in advance he would be a nightmare as most people view first class as 'business class'.

Usually if I was in standard and having a bit more of a relaxed journey I'd be befriending you, minding your bags, puting a movie on my laptop or whatever where you can be a bit noisier. Definitely you should book standard class and have a more relaxing journey for everyone. People tend to view first class as 'business class' really.

That all said, the bloke was an idiot and very rude. Not necessary at all and I would have also cried with frustration and indignation. Who did he think he was? He is a bully. It's not like you were a teenager playing your ipod too loudly or mouthing off loudly on your mobile the whole way there, you were travelling with a small person- you did the right thing to stick up for yourself and if I was there I would have definitely backed you up by saying something along the lines of 'I don't think it is overly helpful to state the obvious. i think it's clear the lady here has had a far worse journey than any of us and cannot control an 18 month old. It's been a difficult journey for her and it was not personal to you and your journey. Perhaps you could spare rubbing it in any further and trying to make another person feel uncomfortable.It's really not a kind thing to do.'

oh ps...
if i was in first class I would have thought 'great not going to get any sleep/work done now' but I would definitely not have let you know and woudl have helped as much as possible to ease the little one's distress and boredom

Thanks to all for their replies. Just to get one point straight - I didn't leave DS strapped into a buggy for 4 hours. I took him out to have a walk around between our house and Euston, and also between carriages on the train to Manchester, but with the latter, ended up blocking the aisles for the people serving tea/coffee and got various tuts from fellow passengers in first class, so I figured I was annoying them more by sharing the misery. I booked two tickets, knowing I didn't have to for under 5s, but figuring that alternating between having him in his buggy for a bit and on the seat next to me would help, as opposed to him having to sit on my lap the entire time (which definitely would have made things worse!).

On further reflection, I wish I had said more. I'm more than entitled to book a journey in first class if I believe that it will make both mine and DS's journey more comfortable, and I would do it again (in fact, thinking about asking for an upgrade on the train home today). DS would have been just as wound up in standard class with less room to move around and having to sit in my lap the majority of the time (strangely enough, he prefers his buggy!), and I don't see why those who travel in standard class (having paid for their tickets fair and square like everyone else) are somehow more "entitled" to have their journey disturbed.

I will be trying my best to ensure he doesn't nap today before the trip, in the hope that he will fall asleep on the train. If he doesn't (and sod's law dictates that he won't and doing that will make him even more wound up!), then I will try my best to walk him round without getting in other people's way. The way I see it, I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't, so all I can think about is my son's comfort in the hope that doing that will make others' journey less stressful/disturbed.

And thanks to all that asked - I had a lovely time at the wedding It definitely made the trip worth it!

And just so people know, I'M frequently that man on the train. I can just about stand other people's children and would not be best pleased if I ended up stuck in a train carriage with a screaming baby/toddler (first class or otherwise) BUT I would never ever have said anything to the parent in question, believing that they'd already had a bad time of things and it would be cruel for me to make it worse.

Glad the wedding went well, and that you're clearly feeling a lot better.

I may be wrong, but if you have a first class ticket, I think you would be free to sit in a standard class seat (if any were available) if that turns out to work best for a few minutes.

I appreciate that trains are pretty full on Sundays though.

Good luck !

Glad the wedding was lovely :)

My DS really likes going between carriages and also hanging out in the hallway by the doors. We did that all the way back from Paris as the train was packed and there was no way I could sit with him on my lap the entire way

Hi, hope you see this before you go.

IME sunday trains in first class are not as busy as on Fridays so you may have less people with you in the carriage to complain about being near a child.

I havent read all the replies, but I wanted to share my experience of first class.

I used to work for a certain train company that went between London and Scotland on the other side of the country. so I had so many first class passes a year and used them. Bank Holidays were a good day to travel too.

Hope your journey back is better. BTW I wouldnt have said ANYTHING so well done you.