Toddlers and first-class travel ... (again!)

[Asana]

Yes, I know it's been done before (I think I still have the thread about first-class travel by plane with children bookmarked somewhere), but I don't care.

So, traveling to Manchester from London earlier today on a midday train for my sister's wedding(s). 16mo DS is highly strung at the best of times, let alone when traveling for 4hrs strapped into a buggy, so was justifiably dreading the trip. I'd booked 2 first class tickets, figuring that I could take him out of his buggy from time to time and have him sit beside me, vainly hoping that having a bit more space to kick about would help make the trip easier.

To put it bluntly, he screamed the entire way, frustrated at not being able to move around. I didn't want to risk blocking the aisles by walking him between carriages and disturbing more people than need be. Colouring books, an iPod with headphones, cartoons on a laptop, lots of finger food, moving all breakable objects and clearing the table of anything he could lob as a weapon etc did nothing. Whatever I tried, he found a way to make it dangerous/antisocial. Even trying to ignore the bad typical behaviour of a non-speaking toddler coupled with regular finger-wagging, proferring a dummy and even (and this I hate to admit) smacking his hand away when he reached to bang the table with his cup/hands/spoon repeatedly for the umpteenth time didn't help. I was utterly mortified when various people moved away tutting loudly and couldn't bring myself to face them.

We finally got to Manchester and, heaving a massive sigh of resignation relief, started getting our stuff together to leave the train. A gentleman walking to the exit waited for the carriage doors to close before launching into a mini-tirade at the other strangers about his ruined journey, all this in clear ear-shot of me. I wish I'd been the bigger person and let it go, but I opened the carriage doors and said to him that it was rude to talk in such a manner about people within their earshot, that we had all been children once and that I had done all I could to keep DS as quiet as possible. The other people looked away and he went a shade of red before turning his back to me and muttering sarcastically (and I quote) "Well, you obviously didn't do a great job of it." I'm ashamed to admit that I told him that I hoped I would have the good grace of raising my son a lot better than his parents did of him. He walked off the train, and I waited before getting to our hotel before bursting into tears.

The thing is I know how frustrating it must be wanting some peace and quiet on a train journey and being subjected to the wailing of someone else's banshee child, but I really don't know what else I could have done. The worst thing is I have to make the same journey back on Sunday in standard class and keep getting a lump in my throat just thinking about it, to the point where I'm considering using my college grant to book a taxi journey all the way home, with the opportunity of stopping at regular intervals to give DS the opportunity to get rid of as much energy as possible. It's something I can ill-afford, but the thought of having to go through the same thing has me in bits!

I don't really think IW/ABU at the incident on the train, but the whole thing (including and especially the smack) made me feel like a shitty traveler/person/mother. I'm exhausted from the 12hr days at college, the lack of sleep from a DS who still doesn't sleep through the night, the inability to get any work done this weekend, the knowledge that next week at college is going to be hellish, the 9am starts and the thought of another 4 hour journey door to door from Manchester to South London. Apologies for the melodramatic tone, but some Mumsnet words of support, coupled with un-Mumsnetty hugs, would be much appreciated right now ...

Don't worry about it. I went on a work trip to Manchester last week and I'm sure that us lot playing pop quiz, travel scrabble and triv at the tops of our voices accompanied by raucous laughter were far more annoying than your toddler

why don't you take him out the buggy i think it will be a lot easier for you and him both, than keeping him in a buggy for 4 hours? (not sure if i misunderstood that part but if you are keeping him on the buggy in the train definitely take him out!) if you want to go in first class i dont see any reason why you shouldn't. we tend to upgrade to first class there is more room for the kids, its better to have a table seat etc cos you can give colouring and that kind of thing to do. the man was BU not you, he was very rude

Do not give it another thought it is over, banish the memory from your mind now.

You did everything you could and that is all we can do. It is super stressful thinking that everyone is tutting and even worse when they do, his journey wasn't that bad as he didn't have to entertain your toddler.

Enjoy your weekend, don't stress about the journey back, there is nothing you can do to avoid it and come Monday night it will be over. x

I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here and say that I can see it from both points of view.

I can imagine how you must feel as you tried everything to get your LO to stay quiet. I can also see it from the rude passenger's point of view as he has paid for a seat in what he hoped would be a quiet carriage. I have been "trapped" on an aeroplane with a toddler who had the screaming abdabs for most of the journey so I know what it is like, but I was sympathetic towards the mother because there was very little she could do about it.

I think that the irate passanger was unquestionably rude to you and well done for sticking up for yourself.

He was rude.

But if I were you and known in advance what the travelling was likely to be like, I think I'd have stayed home until he was a lot older...

Actually, just to be the voice of dissent if I were you I would have left the carriage and stood with him in the vestibule until he had quietened down. I do think it's annoying for other passengers to hear screaming children and you do need to respect that.

I also agree that it would be bloody annoying having paid for first class and have a screaming toddler the whole way. It sounds like you did all you could but I don't think you should have been in first class to begin with.

My boss travels extensively for her job and gets straight off the plane to meetings. Last month, on a flight to Singapore she was joined in business premium by the family of three children under five all yelling and screaming. It was completely unacceptable when she was paying so much for a journey where she could sleep. Her solution was that they should have some days/journeys were children can go in first/business class and some when they cannot. She would make sure she booked the latter!

People would have been much more tolerant in standard class and you would have been much less stressed so I reckon you stick with that next time! You'd probably find people willing to entertain your DS or other children for him to play with - that is what we have found.

I would have done the same as Cumbria81

The OP had an iphone but it didn't calm her DS.

I walk up and down with my DS, take new toys for the journey etc. There is no way I'd leave a baby strapped in his buggy - I would take them out the whole time.

I work if I'm travelling 1st class and I don't want a screaming kid sitting behind me the whole way, sorry.

I can understand that you did your best, and this has been horribly stressful for you.

The guy was a prat, and I think your response to him was fair enough. Try to forget it now, as it really isn't worth thinking about.

I've travelled on trains at weekends a fair bit for work - pre DC - and I must confess that I was very grateful for the times when I was able to travel first to get away from the children who seemed to my naive ears to be really noisy.

So I would agree with all the others that you will be better off in standard than in first class. You might still have some people who give you dirty looks or even complain. But more likely you won't be the only one.

BTW, I would have felt upset by this too. Hey, I got upset by the woman bristling in Wagamama's when 18mo DS got a bit shouty at the end of our meal while we were waiting for the bill. Within a couple of minutes I had him cleaned up, out of the highchair and outside while DH settled up. But she still gave me a dirty look as we left. This was in a child-friendly restaurant where you sit at communal tables for goodness sake.

There are a fair few people like that woman and your bloke, but it doesn't mean that they are right.

Enjoy your sister's wedding, and just remember the train journey back is only four hours out of your life and will be over eventually.

I'm really sorry you've had such a rubbish experience travelling and certainly don't think you should stay at home until DS is older (!?) what are you supposed to do - stay in the house just in case he has a tantrum and that upsets other people?!

All you can do is learn from this experience and make it better for next time - certainly don't book a taxi for the way back, you've already forked out on 1st class tickets and a taxi will cost a fortune too.

I travel quite a bit with my 18 month old DD from Leeds to London on the train, on my own and DD has been on over 14 flights as we have family abroad.

What I tend to do for the train journey is take a mini laptop with me which has songs, stories etc on and I also upload a whole bunch of CBeebies programs on there so she can watch them on the train (don't worry about headphones, just keep the volume down - people are often making enough noise on their mobiles to worry about that and they soon realise it's the better option than a tantrumming toddler!)

In addition to this I take a small bag with books, magazines, toys and snacks for DD.
The thing I have found works best, though, is sitting at a disabled table.

There is one of these in each carriage and they are rarely occupied - if you check it isn't reserved before the train leaves and explain to the conductor that although you have a reserved seat you'd rather sit there as you don't want to disturb other passengers, they are usually grateful!

The disabled table is at the end of the carriage and faces away from the rest of the passengers and has a large amount of floor space near it. It consists of one seat and there is enough room to put a pushchair next to you. This means DD can sit next to me in her pushchair, on my lap or she can get up and walk around a bit and go out of the carriage as much as she likes, without disturbing anyone else. It's a bit like having your own bit of the train and a lot less stressful!

I really think you should try this on your way back as it may prove to be a completely different sort of journey.

Please don't let this rude man put you off travelling - it's ok for people to be a little annoyed about a toddler tantrumming, but if they don't give you the opportunity to do something about it at the time by saying something to you directly then you can only assume that they are ok with it.
Best of luck on the return journey! x

I' would never have travelled first class with a toddler or baby. Would consider it a waste of money for a start, but I do think 1st class passengers expect peace and to be able to work on their laptops for the money whilst normal class is more tolerant of small sprogs, plus more likely to have other small sprogs to distract him and larger carriages.
I'd never expect anyone else to distract my kid and have no desire to childmind when travelling without kids.
I've never travelled first class, but if I did I'd be pissed off if a small kid screamed the whole way. I wouldn't say anything though as parent had paid same price as me and would just write it down to proof that money can't buy you everything.

I think the guy was a prat - but, equally, if I'd have been in that carriage i'd have been pissed off too.

If I travel first class by train it's because I've got a ton of work to do/write befoe I reach my destination. A screaming toddler would not have made the task easy.

Some kids are a nightmare to travel with - I accept you did your best but I don't believe kids belong in first/business class. Not fair on the other travellers who have paid extra to not be disturbed

I would have been pissed off, whichever carriage I was in, if I was, eg, tired, busy or whatever. However, I would not have blamed the parent of the noisy toddler (other than possibly in my head if I was being very unreasonable). And there is absolutely no entitlement in first (or business) class to 'quiet'; if it were they would ban mobiles etc as they do in quiet carriages.

OP you were perfectly entitled to be there, you had paid for your seat just as anyone else had. And not everyone in first class is there for work, not everyone in standard doesn't have to work; it is just a question of, when you buy your ticket, do you want to pay a bit more for a bit more legroom/comfort or don't you. You aren't paying to control who shares your air, and you aren't paying for quiet; those may often be beneficial side effects but they are not part of the package.

No they're not guaranteed. But if your child is screaming, leaving it strapped in its pushchair when it's not like being on a plane - you are perfectly at liberty to walk the length of the train and back again - seems rather perverse.

I am sympathetic - I know it's really stressful travelling on your own with small children.

I sympathise but, my heart sinks when i see small children travelling beside me on the train,- first class or not.
Can definitley see it from both points of view.

I never travel 1st class anyway-thinking it a complete waste of money! It is a difficult one because the people I know use it for work and they have a hectic schedule and are paying for more room and peace to work on the train, so I can see the frustration of a screaming child. I guess they have to remember that everyone has the right to travel first class and while they may hope for peace and quiet,they might not get it.

Traveling by any means of public transport carries some level of risk of raucous teenagers, drunk football fans, noisy business men, loud phone chatters, people snoring and all sorts of other noise pollution. Most train companies have a quiet carriage where it is reasonable to expect some degree of calm but beyond that no one has any right to quiet regardless of what they pay. First class is not reserved for business people, it is just more spacious and more expensive.

I agree that a screaming child is hard for anyone to bear, but I bet it was worse for the OP than anyone else, and probably not quite as constant as she thinks either. I am impressed with the come back - I only ever think about saying stuff afterward in the privacy of my head.

For the journey back it is worth ringing the customer support number for the train company, as if they have a family carriage (virgin do this) then that would be the best place to be, as it will be full of other children, noisy enough to cover up a few bangs on the table and the other people will know the score. Otherwise get walking up and down the aisles. Totally normal for parents of toddlers, and you'll probably find a few people prepared to do a bit of spontaneous peepoing leavened amongst the tutters.

Asana - I knew I remembered your name - you are gorgeous maxi-dress lady!

The man was an idiot. OK none of us relish being sat near screaming children but sometimes thats what happens you know on public transport.

Get the train back and if I were you - I'd just walk him round a bit as and when necessary and count the minutes down until you can get home and have a glass of wine.

Good luck and hope the wedding went well.

Just because people travel for work and have meetings to attend it does not give them greater rights than anyone else who has paid for a first class ticket. Children are not second class citizens. Plenty of people travelling for work don't travel first class. That doesn't mean their jobs are less important and it's more okay for them to be disturbed by a screaming baby. It's just one of those things and the moaners will just have to suck it up (for want of a better phrase).

You did all you could. These things happen. The man who moaned about you should have spoken to you directly if he had something to say. He deserved the ear bashing.

I don't quite understand the posters who think that because someone has paid for business/first then they have some entitlement to a childless zone. Children are just as entitled to travel business or first if their parents can afford it.

I travel frequently for work (in business in the good old days but not anymore ) and often have to go straight into meetings after long-haul flights. It's very easy though - you invest in a good set of noise-cancelling headphones and then you don't hear a thing.

OP, I think you were more than reasonable and I quite admire you for sticking up for yourself like that!

I think you would be better to stick to your standard fare ticket home. People in the normal carriages don't have the same level of expectation as those travelling in First Class.

I'm on the fence about children travelling First Class, but come down on the side of 'if they can't be trusted to be quiet, they shouldnt' be in there'. Part of the comfort you pay more for, is the peace & quiet that should be in there (IMO).

You did the best you could at the time, but I think you need to let him wander around and tire him out before you go. As others have said, buy a couple of new things for him to play with/look at and try not to stress yourself - they do sense it and do play up because of it!!

I hope you are having a fab time at the wedding!! :)

We're just off to the local pub to laugh at watch the Morris Dancers and have some hot chips & mulled wine :)

I haven't read all this thread but I do this journey all the time between London and Edinburgh First Class. Often just me and dd.

I walk up and down the train, do stickers, look out of the window, order lunch etc.

Not once has anyone got cross with us - including the last time when we sat next to someone rather famous!

Good luck and just try and keep happy and calm.

It's called public transport for a good reason.