to find France's actions disturbing?

[Glitterknickaz]

Regarding the claim that 1,230 Roma have been deported since July here

Bearing in mind that some of these Roma were from EU member states and therefore should have free movement within fellow member states?

I think I agree with Viviane Reding that it goes against all the "fundamental values on which Europe has been built since World War II: respect for the individual and non-discrimination against racial, ethnic or national groups"

It feels very much like the actions of Nazi Germany back in the 30's, it is also interesting that back then as now there was a recession...

Yanbu.

That is awful.

Britain probably as bad though. ?

I was by some of the anti-Muslim sentiment in France. I've always considered it a leftie country.

Current govt is so far right though

France do tend to have a lower tolerance of immigrants than many other countries so it does not surprise me but does sadden me.

Not sure how much it can be likened to the Vichy regime, though. They're being deported back home, not sent to concentration camps. I'm sure that the jews sent to the death camps would have much preferred being deported than what they got :( Not saying it's right, just don't think it's comparable, really.

YANBU, but it's causing lots of controversy there too. It was all over the French media during August. Unfortunately, the government gained support on it after the Vatican felt the need to weigh in and condemn them, thereby causing a lot of the staunch "separation of church and state" lefties to support something they wouldn't have otherwise :(

Nickytwotimes, my experience of the French (living there, married one etc) has led me to conclude that sadly socialism and xenophobia are not mutually exclusive.

Are they splitting hairs as far as whether Roma are a group for the purposes of EU anti discrimination legislation?

The problem of course is that while it's all well and good to say that these people aren't being forced to return as they have received bribes payments, it's really unethical at best and would guess none have been legally advised prior to being deported.

Their country, their rules....what's the problem?

yanbu
I think it is dreadful

Lots of problems actually, DaftPunk.

"Their country, their rules.... what's the problem?"
Well as per my OP it's in some cases contrary to free movement to EU member states and also contrary to the principles upon which post war Europe was founded.

I just KNEW you'd post, and exactly what you'd post too! Funny that.

I think they are from countries that although in the EU do not yet have the right of free movement.

But YANBU. But it's happening in lots of countries, in various guises.

But to play devils advocate, the particular Roma who have been deported are involved in begging, anti social behaviour and are generally a real nuisance. I guess though other ways of dealing with this should be thought of.

GK;

Sorry, but I haven't got a problem with it at all...not really sure why you have either?

I'm not a bleeding heart liberal who specialises in preaching to others about how they should feel.... ime most liberals are deluded fools who suffer greatly from Nimbyism

i actually wondered which of Frances recent actions of intolerance you were on about.

and socilism has historically had bugger all to do with tolerance.

Does the term "slippery slope" mean anything to you, Daftpunk?

Edgar, I agree but didn't want to confuse the issue.

DP I'm not telling anyone how to feel at all.... I am however stating that I find this situation very disturbing.

I'm aware that it's not just confined to France at the moment, indeed Viviane Reding alludes to this in her interview with the bbc.

Once again though I'll say it - amazing how during recession things like this start to happen.....

DP is right to some extent that Nimbyism does afflict the pro-roma cause, as communities however much they welcome them in principle tend to dislike the reality when visited upon them.

though still that's not a reason for the law to take the side of the Nimbys against the European bill of rights.

Exactly... Nimbys will only stick up for these people providing they're 200+ miles away

I've got very, very complex mixed feelings about this. I can see all the awful parallels with the Nazi regime, understand about slippery slopes etc, and I feel uncomfortable about it on several levels, but we have to ask ourselves what it is the Roma are doing in France (and in Ireland about a year ago) that is forcing otherwise civilized and reasonably compassionate nations to do this.

They have a dreadful problem in Rome, Barcelona etc, with the Roma people indulging in 'aggressive begging' and organised street crime, and it's obviously starting to be a big issue in France as well. I have experienced this myself in both cities, and recently in Siena, Italy we were followed by a gang of Roma pickpockets.

There is much evidence in Britain to link the Roma to child smuggling and exploitation, prostitution, fraud, begging and pickpocketing, often using children as decoys and foot soldiers. I've read Isobel Fonesca's book on the Roma people (she is an academic who lived with them for about a year in Eastern Europe, and it was by no means a DM sensationalist rant) and she says they genuinely see no shame in begging and petty crime - to them it is a valid and justifiable way of 'earning' a living. Therein lies the problem, doesn't it?

And before anyone says it, yes there apickpockets and beggars of all races, but I don't know of any others who seem to indulge in it as a part of their cultural identity.

'Unfortunately, the government gained support on it after the Vatican felt the need to weigh in and condemn them, thereby causing a lot of the staunch "separation of church and state" lefties to support something they wouldn't have otherwise'

Fingon, are you saying that French secularists would have supported the Roma but because the Vatican did, they felt they had to withdraw that support? What, just to take a different line to a religious one?

If this is the case, it seems very twisted.

As far as I understand, they are there illegally.

Even though the Tony Blair government and the UK recognised the citizenship of the EU ascension countries France and Germany did not (perferring to phase it in whilst keeping national control of their borders) so anyone from these countries who are in France without permission are there illegally.

Deporting people on the basis of ethnicity is illegal under EU law. However, deporting people who are there illegally, setting up illegal camps or indulging in any criminal behaviour is perfectly legal under French law.

I don't think comparisons with Nazi Germany are fair.

I am Romanian (one of the countries where they deport the Roma back to) and I know first hand how the Roma can behave. I have seen numerous documentaries about begging camps, where they trained kids in how to act disabled for pitty money, but also where they maimed kids for the same reason.

I also know that these Roma do not want to work/ prefer a begging life as it is far easier that holding a steady job and they do the same thing in Romania.

At their arrival in Bucharest many are interviewed and they say they would saty in Romania for at the most a week, then return to France.

To be honest, I think the actions of France and other countries are mild and they should be more determined in solving this issue. They are illegal immigrants despite being EU citizens as Romania still has restrictions in most of the European countries. And even if they weren't illegal immigrants, they are still breaking the law, thus making deportation legal.

The Romanian authorities are scared to act as any type of action to regulate the Roma population (many of whom have kids who do not go to school/ are not registered in the system/ are used fro begging purposes only) is seen as a racist act, hence not favourably seen by the EU.

I will also say that not all Roma are like this, as some are really hard working and strive to do something in their lives. But these generally stay in their home countries and raise families there.

Hope this sheds some light on why France and other countries deal with this problem the way they do.

They're illegal. I think this country should be more proactive about deporting people who are illegally here, too.

Their government is democratically elected. So it's right-wing, so's ours!

Oh, and as for anti-Muslim sentiment, the university in Lyon went and housed me and another man from my university in a heavily Middle Eastern area when we went there for a year's study abroad. We were the victims of many racist attacks and had to leave in the middle of the night after a petrol bomb was thrown through one of our windows.

It's a two-way street.

So I agree with daftpunk here.

Donkey. I agree with you, except that when an individual, or a group of individuals persistently commits crime or causes a social/environmental nuisance they can be dealt with as an idiviual or a group of individuals. When the 'group' in question all appear to be colluding with one another in the crime or the nuisance, and they all happen to be of the same very small, specific ethnic group it is extremely difficult to take action without it looking like some form of ethnic cleansing.

I don't think this is ethnic cleansing, I think it's persisant social nuisance cleansing, but it doesn't change the way it looks to the outside world, and in fact, in the law.

As it said, it's a tricky one. I do think we need to ask why, given that we have come so far in tolerance and understanding of ethnic minorities in Europe, the Roma still seem o be 'persecuted' everywhere they go.