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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to find France's actions disturbing?

42 replies

Glitterknickaz · 15/09/2010 12:38

Regarding the claim that 1,230 Roma have been deported since July here

Bearing in mind that some of these Roma were from EU member states and therefore should have free movement within fellow member states?

I think I agree with Viviane Reding that it goes against all the "fundamental values on which Europe has been built since World War II: respect for the individual and non-discrimination against racial, ethnic or national groups"

It feels very much like the actions of Nazi Germany back in the 30's, it is also interesting that back then as now there was a recession...

OP posts:
sc13 · 15/09/2010 14:51

YANBU. As a (legal) immigrant myself, I have seen first-hand how easy it is to generalize about the behaviour of a whole community from that of a few members of it. I am also very wary of blaming 'illegals' for all sort of problems - easier to make a grand gesture like mass deportation than to address actual issues.

Chaotica · 15/09/2010 15:00

YANBU

Cannot be bothered arguing with generalised anti-roma crap on here again as I have to get the DCs in from begging. (That is certainly not directed at all posters on here, BTW.)

newmum13 · 15/09/2010 15:25

Talk about a swift thread killing... Wink

daftpunk · 15/09/2010 15:39

The thread died within 30 posts because it's a boring non- subject. France kick out a load of illegals....

So what? That's what all countries should be doing.

viva la France

tb · 15/09/2010 15:50

Apparently the freedom of movement depends on not being a financial burden on the member state to which you have moved. In France that means not claiming benefits and having insurance for medical care if you do not work and are not in the system that way.

This results from a european directive iirc, even though it doesn't seem to be applied very widely in the uk from what I read.

FellatioNelson · 15/09/2010 16:22

Chaotica, you may want it to be 'anti-Roma crap', and it may indeed be anti-Roma, but I'm afraid it isn't crap, is it? I have seen many many beggars in my time, (in Europe) but I have only EVER encountered aggressive begging from Roma. This has happened several times, in several countries, in spite of the fact that they are a tiny, tiny ethnic minority. You may not like it that I am prepared to say that that is my experience, but it doesn't change the fact that it is my experience.

At some point we need to be able to stand up and SAY that some collective groups of people do things persistently, that are socially unacceptable, without it automatically being taken as blatant racism. We cannot get to the bottom of how to help break unacceptable cycles of behaviour in certain communities if we are too blinkered to acknowledge they happen in the first place.

For example, I'm also prepared to say that we have a real problem with money laundering and fraud eminating from Nigeria. does that make me racist against all Nigerians?

ilovemydogandMrObama · 15/09/2010 16:37

Don't think they're illegal. My understanding is that Romania and Bulgaria citizens have the right to live in the EU, but not work, I thought?

If a particular person has committed a crime, then fair enough, deport them, but don't target the whole Roma community and say they are all criminals.

FellatioNelson · 15/09/2010 16:45

I think the argument is that they persist in setting up illegal encampments, so by definition anyone living on them (except the children) is breaking the law. I don't think they are blanket targeting all Roma,(that would be dodgy and difficult to justify) only the ones who live on these illegal settlements.

The trouble is, most of them do live on illegal settlements.

newmum13 · 15/09/2010 16:48

ilovemydog Romanians and Bulgarians have the right to move freely throughout the EU, but can only stay in a country for a maximum of three months and only as tourists . Which means no ritht of employment and no access to any type of benefits unless insured (health services for example).

The Roma deported have been taken from illegal camp sites, where they had nopermission to stay, nor did they stay only for three monts, thus in breach of the law. That without taking into account any other illegalities they might have been involved in. Surely, no one would have gone to someone's house to deport them if they had the necessary work permits and paperwork/ if they had a steady job/ if they were there for the stated period of time as tourists and doing nothing wrong.

mamatomany · 15/09/2010 16:51

And have you seen the footage of how they live ? They know they cannot legally work, they know the conditions they bring their children to live in and yet still they try to break the law, why would you do that to your kids ?

What is so bad about Bulgaria or Romania ?

ilovemydogandMrObama · 15/09/2010 17:17

Thought the transitional arrangements for Bulgaria and Romania was that they had to have residence permits in France which obviously is at the discretion of the French government, and although they cannot go to France to seek work, they can get employment.

In any case, there will be free movement in 2012 when the transitional arrangements end, so it's just delaying the problem.

Chandon · 15/09/2010 17:55

FellatioNelson,

Ethnic cleansing is a euphemism for killing, so does not apply here.

Sending them back does not equal killing them off!

FellatioNelson · 15/09/2010 18:12

I don't think the term only applies to killing minorities, Chandon, just removing them permanently and forcibly from an area (by whatever means, including killing) - surely? Confused It was referred to as a form of ethnic cleansing on the radio today as well.

Anyway, I'm not arguing against France's actions, just saying I think they are treading a delicate path and they need to make sure they've covered all their bases legally and in terms of human rights, or they'll get hung drawn and quartered for this. It doesn't matter how much they feel justified, it is going to be very hard to make this look like anything other than racism and persecution to people who want to see it that way.

IronCurtain · 15/09/2010 18:31

Ok, I'm also Romanian and have followed the situation closely. I agree with all saying illegal immigrants should be deported. But:

  1. there have been circulars in the French Interior Minister specifically asking for the deportation of roma ethnics - irrespective of their legal status (which was one main reason Commissioner Reding was so tough in her statement)
  1. most Roma ethnics sent back to Romania had not been accused of committing any crimes. So their deportation is in breech of their right to the presumption of innocence (there is a reason for this - my understanding is that once a criminal investigation is started the procedure for sending them back home is very lengthy and complicated)
  1. as newmum13 said, they will not stay long in their origin countries because they live in poverty. poverty is relative, so worse in Romania (poorer country) than France (richer country). There is nothing that can be done legally to prevent them from leaving again. So there is actually a need for decent immigration policies and not this ping-pong game

sorry this is long. i'll shut up now

FellatioNelson · 15/09/2010 18:36

No, not too long at all! Hard to debate this properly in posts of one sentence!

longfingernails · 16/09/2010 01:57

I think Sarkozy's actions are pretty crass but I support his right to take them, as a democratically elected politician, without the EU shoving its big boots in.

We could certainly learn a thing or two from the French about how to ignore the EU when we feel it is necessary.

FellatioNelson · 16/09/2010 07:35

Hear Hear!

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