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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to believe some if not all of the 9/11 conspiracy theories

703 replies

mrsunreasonable · 11/09/2010 15:00

NOTE: This is not meant to be offensive and if you suffered as a result of 9/11 you have my deepest sympathies it was a terrible event however it was caused.

Having watched a few documentaries on the conspiracy theories I am partially if not completely convinced all was not as it seemed. The fact that many witnesses that saw/heard things that didn't tie in with the official version have since died in suspicious circumstances doesn't help!

OP posts:
tokyonambu · 15/09/2010 13:09

Or maybe it's that they aren't deranged loons continuously re-cycling the same nonsense for an audience of the gullible who do, genuinely, believe that the US government regards the deaths of 3000 of its own civilians as just the price of doing business?

In science, we like theories to be falsifiable. There needs to be an experiment or a finding which would bring the theory down. If the theory is not falsifiable, it's religion. I don't believe 9/11 troofers are falsifiable: there is nothing that will convince them that they are wrong, and their "theory" (wild hypothesis, perhaps, as a theory is the best current explanation which includes all known findings) is infinitely extensible. What do they believe? Planes, drones, missiles, holograms? Bush, Israel, UN? Explosives, thermite, whatever madness Shaylor talks about when he's not taken his meds? Jews, Muslims, Americans? What?

Flighttattendant · 15/09/2010 13:10

Maybe they see it as pointless.

After all a lot of big cover ups have been exposed concurrently and nothing was done...thinking of the Vietnam situation and so on. People KNEW and there was a big inquiry but the state of play wasn't affected. It just carried on.

chibi · 15/09/2010 13:13

flightattendant what is the vietnam coverup that you are referring to?

chibi · 15/09/2010 13:14

and what was the big inquiry that took place about vietnam which did not affect the state of play?

claig · 15/09/2010 13:18

There are loads of different conspiracy theorists, who believe different things. They're not all the same. Some of them are deliberate disinfo people. Many conspiracy theorists think that Shayler was a disinfo person, who said some reasonable things and then deliberately said some crackpot things. The daddy of the conspiracy theorists has in the past described David icke as being "a turd in the punchbowl". He has since apologised, because he believes that Icke has said good things. What he meant was that Icke was somebody who said some true things and then deliberately spoiled everything he said by talking about lizards. He meant that this was deliberately done so that it would discredit all of the questions that people were asking. It means that the ignorant think that they are clever in saying "oh it's all that lizard stuff".

tokyonambu · 15/09/2010 13:19

"After all a lot of big cover ups have been exposed concurrently and nothing was done...thinking of the Vietnam situation and so on."

Could you expand? Are we thinking of the same Vietnam? I'm thinking of the fifteen year national trauma that ripped two governments apart (Johnson's refusal to stand for a second term and Nixon's resignation) and is widely credited with completely altering the relationship between the US government and the US population. Is there another one? The Vietnam which the US Army is so angry about, even thirty years later, that not merely does it allow an officer headed for the top to write his PhD thesis on the treachery of the US government, they encourage him to publish it as well under the title of "Dereliction of Duty: Johnson, McNamara, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Lies That Led to Vietnam" (summary here That Vietnam?

There's a ruler-straight line from the burglary of Daniel Elsberg's psychiatrist's office to the burglary of the Watergate offices, and one of the reasons Woodward and Bernstein were on the Watergate case was because the Washington Post had been looking at the activities of the White House over the Pentagon Papers.

claig · 15/09/2010 13:31

The Vietnam war was started due to the Gulf of Tonkin incident, which was a lie to start the war. Jesse Ventura, an ex-politician, mentions it and 911 on Fox TV.

tokyonambu · 15/09/2010 14:07

"The Vietnam war was started due to the Gulf of Tonkin incident, which was a lie to start the war. Jesse Ventura, an ex-politician, mentions it and 911 on Fox TV."

this is a fascinating read, not least because you don't often get to read declassifed TS. I'm sure our favourite ex-wrestler has read it.

claig · 15/09/2010 14:54

Just watched a few of Jesse Ventura's videos on youtube. One of his quotes is

"how can two planes knock down three buildings?"

Diamondback · 15/09/2010 15:42

If you watch 'Screw Loose Change' (the documentary I linked to previously) you can see clear images of WTC7 before it collapsed with big chunks missing from the lower floors, from where it was struck by chunks of the other tower.

So for those of you asking, "how could the twin towers collapse without damaging anything around them?" - they didn't.

And although Tokyo's tone may be patronising and aggresive, to refuse to read hard evidence that she's posted is short-sighted, to say the least.

Flighttattendant · 15/09/2010 15:55

Oh hello. I don't think anyone's refused to read it. We all tried, but it was a load of weird symbols and stuff.

duh.

Snorbs · 15/09/2010 16:16

"I had thought you were less scathing and dismissive than Tokyo but you seem to be getting moreso. Which is sad as I really enjoyed your earlier posts."

FA, I'm getting more dismissive because it seems that I write a response, and get told that I haven't looked into any of the conspiracy theories. I say, um, actually yes I have and have lots of questions. Those questions get ignored and I'm simply told "Well watch this then". I do and come up with criticisms and questions which are completely ignored and, instead, get told "Oh, well, watch that instead". I ask for a summary - because I've watched a lot of these things and most of them say exactly the same things spread over an hour or so with the same pictures and talking heads - and that request, predictably, gets completely ignored.

I feel I've put quite a lot of effort into providing at least some answers for the questions that have been posed here by you and others. You may agree with those answers, or not, and that's fine. But it would be nice if at least some of the questions I've posed are answered with the same care and effort that I've put in rather than just being rudely ignored.

Flighttattendant · 15/09/2010 16:23

Yes I can see what you are on about. It would piss me off too.

I hope I was appreciative enough, and showed it - I thought your earlier posts were excellent. They really helped me.

Sorry you are getting annoyed.

Snorbs · 15/09/2010 16:52

"What is interesting is that all of the questions that hey have been asked have been uncovered by them alone, and newspapers such as the Guardian have done hardly any questioning at all."

Anyone can ask questions. It's the answers that are important.

As yet I've yet to hear a coherent response from a controlled-demolition conspiracy theorist as to why the conspirators felt they needed to fly aircraft into buildings that were wired to explode anyway. Or why the conspirators didn't just set fire to the buildings if they wanted to destroy them. Or why no-one has come forward saying that they saw the explosives being manufactured, packaged, delivered, installed or triggered.

tokyonambu · 15/09/2010 16:55

" I don't think anyone's refused to read it. We all tried, but it was a load of weird symbols and stuff."

If someone tells you "the research says this" you claim you want to see evidence because you don't trust people to interpret it for you. When someone shows you the evidence, you say you don't understand it. You do realise how that's never going to get anywhere, don't you? There are some things that need proper mathematics, and if you neither have it (which is reasonable: it's at the screaming outer edges of mine) nor are willing to trust people to interpret it for you, what can you do?

Caoimhe · 15/09/2010 17:03

This thread is mad - tokyo and snorbs, I am impressed by your patience in explaining stuff over and over again to people who either can't understand it or wilfully refuse to try.

Flighttattendant · 15/09/2010 18:52

I was being ironic, sorry. Failed joke.

Tokyo, I think you're right. Essentially I am stuffed. I really want to understand how it all makes sense but I can't, because my level of comprehension of advanced whatever is not high enough.

Caoimhe I am impressed by their knowledge but tbh the way Tokyo approached the thread from the start was so confrontational that a lot of time was wasted on all that.

We could have had the latest post 2 days ago along with that link nobody could understand, and we all would have trotted off, tails between legs, knowing we had no hope of ever getting it. Instead we had about a zillion posts that went 'God you are all so stupid, troofers are idiots' etc etc and everyone got in a flap.

I am satisfied now that it's beyond me, and will give up. For that I am finally grateful.

Flighttattendant · 15/09/2010 18:54

Sorry, not just Tokyo of course - there were loads of sniggering people as well, most of whom I would be willing to wager have not got a clue what that link says either...

CoteDAzur · 15/09/2010 19:43

FA - I'm sorry to say that you are not knowledgeable enough to argue on the subject of how buildings collapse.

Regardless of what you think of her writing style, Tokyo is right. A failed structure will collapse like a stack of pancakes in the absence of a lateral force.

CoteDAzur · 15/09/2010 19:44

And sarcasm is not helping your baseless argument.

Flighttattendant · 15/09/2010 19:49

Sorry Cote, not sure what you mean by sarcasm? Which bit? I don't think Iw as being sarcastic just now, at least. What I said I meant.

I also don't know why you think I think myself knowledgeable enough, either - I've admitted I'm not.

Finally I agree tokyo probably is right, but it's beyond me to argue it. So I have no 'argument'.

Please therefore explain what you mean.

Flighttattendant · 15/09/2010 19:53

Cote: 'FA - I'm sorry to say that you are not knowledgeable enough to argue on the subject of how buildings collapse. Regardless of what you think of her writing style, Tokyo is right.'

FA: (previously) 'Tokyo, I think you're right. Essentially I am stuffed. I really want to understand how it all makes sense but I can't, because my level of comprehension of advanced whatever is not high enough.'

Cote: 'And sarcasm is not helping your baseless argument.' ???

I do wish people wouldn't assume I'm being sarcastic when I'm usually not.

Does it really come across like that - is that what you meant? I apologise if it did.

tokyonambu · 15/09/2010 20:06

I'm going to have one more try for FA. Let's try a modern skyscraper, because it's easier to explain than a steel-framed one.

A modern tall building is held up by its core. If you've watched them being built, you'll see that the life shaft is put up first, then the floors are attached to that, then the walls are attached.

Each floor is the same thickness, because all it has to do is support its own weight, and the weight of its own wall.

Unlike a cathedral, where the walls are thick at the bottom to support the weight of the thinner walls above, the walls are a constant thickness, because the wall of each floor is supported by the floor. There isn't a continuous wall running from the top to the bottom of the building; rather, each floor has its own wall, which is the same weight be it the bottom floor or the top floor. So you can remove the wall around the 20th floor, and the 21st floor walls don't move, and no load is removed from the 19th floor walls.

This is pretty critical for buildings with a lot of glass, because although you can make glass structural (the windscreen on a modern car, for example, is structural, as you'll know if you've ever driven a car with a broken windscreen) it's expensive and difficult.

OK so far? You've got a lift shaft, with some floors coming out of it, with a non-structural wall to keep the rain out resting on each floor. The floors are structural insofar as they support their own weight, plus the weight of one storey of wall. The walls aren't structural at all.

Now, imagine a floor fails. It breaks away from the core, and drops onto the floor below. Now that floor is supporting two floors' worth of weight, which it might be able to do. But it failed for a reason, and that reason may be (as happened on WTC) a fire. So a couple of floors drop, until finally you have enough weight to fail a floor because of the debris sat on it. If the debris from above was enough to cause the 20th floor to fail, that debris plus the debris of the 20th floor will certainly cause the 19th to fail, and so on down.

The walls won't provide any resistance, because they are simply there to keep the rain out: the walls are designed to support their own weight, like the walls of a single-storey pre-fab hut. Actually, not even that, because those have to support the roof. And so it goes down, leaving just the lift shaft behind. It drops into its footprint, because there's no lateral force: each floor is failing and dropping onto the one below. It doesn't matter if it fails slightly asymmetrically, because the failure of each floor below will tend to damp out and unevenness.

Now a steel-framed building is slightly more complex, but the same basic analysis holds. The structure is a vertical bearer with floors cantilevered off it, with the walls just decoration at the edges. The structure is more diffuse, so rather than a single concrete lift shaft there are girders forming the core, set in concrete. But again, each floor only has to support itself and its wall, and each wall only has to support itself.

People keep thinking of sky-scrapers as like very tall houses, where each wall is supporting both the walls and the floors above it. It's not like that. There's a single load-bearing structure which takes the load, and then each floor and wall unit is just a floor and some sheeting on the outside. Take the walls away of a house and the floors collapse to the ground. Take the walls away from a skyscraper and nothing happens. It is, literally, just a stack of floors, and those floors are no stronger in a building of 100 floors than a building of 5: each only needs to support its own weight.

karyncake · 15/09/2010 20:06

I lived in New York at that time. It was a horrible day and my first week working in the City. All I remember was chaos and being evacuated. Everyone everywhere was scared and in shock.
I saw the number 7 building collapse out of my apartment window. It did not look like a controlled explosion.

tokyonambu · 15/09/2010 20:06

lift shaft, not life shaft.