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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to believe Faith schools should be privately funded ?

776 replies

Peetle · 08/09/2010 10:23

I should explain my interest. The nearest primary school to my house is about 250 yards away and involves crossing two not very busy roads. It is a faith school. The next nearest is about 300 yards away, across a major road and in the middle of a council estate. It's ofsted report full of phrases like "higher than average English as a second language", "higher than average free school meals", etc, etc. Other local schools are over a mile away and we're likely to be out of their catchment area.

To get into the faith school families have to attend our local place of worship regularly for two years, know the officials and prove regular financial donations to the establishment. Of course, once these families have got their first child into the school they stop attending and donating. I also know of families of different and even contradictory faiths attending purely to get their children into the school. And I frequently see people picking up their children in cars, suggesting they live considerably further from it than we do.

We have no hope of getting into this school, not being hypocrites and not wishing to give our children the idea that it's alright to be dishonest about something if you want it badly enough.

My point is that I don't mind people wanting to give their children an education in their chosen faith, but I object to my taxes funding a school I can't use and which encourages parents to profess a religious belief they don't hold purely for the purposes of entry.

OP posts:
FuzzFace · 10/09/2010 22:07

TheCoalition, I shall break my self imposed ban on this discussion to point out that in the current system the government is getting school provision on the cheap because the school land and buildings and often some teaching staff are being provided by another organisation. If this is about resources then the government should massively expand the current system and encourage more businesses like Microsoft and other organisations to join the public-private partnership and invest in running schools as a contribution to society at large.

Henny1995 · 10/09/2010 22:09

@ Seeker
"I don't want school to tell children that God does not exist - I want school to explain that some people believe in him and some people don't."

That's fine. All schools, even church schools (well, Anglican anyway) do this already Seeker. I can't speak for ALL faith schools on this, as my experience doesn't extend that far.

"But any child who goes to a State school in this country is taught with an undercurrent of Christianity being an objective truth".

And (if that were true, which it isn't)that might be because there is a 1,200 year old tradition of Christianity in this country. Our laws (like it or not) are built on it, as are our education and healthcare systems. Our history is replete with it. When I lived in Turkey, all the kids were taught in RE was Islam and I didn't bat an eyelid, because that is a big part of their heritage.

The truth of the matter here is that kids get an education on ALL the major faiths.
I totally believe kids should learn about all faiths (even in my imaginary faith school that I'm arguing for here). However, as you say elsewhere, there's learning about other faiths and participating in them. The latter is so wrong, but very common sadly, usually because the RE teacher has no strong personal faith themselves and regards faith in anthropological terms only. I'm dead against kids being made to pray/sing/worship to any god other than their own. This happens across all faiths, not just Christian. I've seen kids dancing and singing to religious Hindu songs too, without knowing what they are singing or who the worship inherant in the dance is directed towards. I've known kids be made to bow down to the Sikh Holy book on school trips to a temple and I've heard teachers insist that when kids say Mohammed's name, they follow it with Peace Be Upon Him. To the person with no faith, this seems harmless, allowing kids to experience other faiths. But to me it seems wrong. Faith is a serious business. People are passionate about their faith and to encourage kids to participate in other faiths this way, belittles both the faith itself and the child's own faith. As a Christian, if I were to do any of the above, I would be going against my faith at many levels. It's the same for kids of other faiths also. What Muslim or Jew would feel comfortable talking about Jesus as "Christ", for example? Or singing Christmas Carols? There's a very fine line between learning about and participating in and it's almost impossible not to cross it at times, but it's a line I believe in and think we should strive NOT to cross.

"People who want their children taught that God exists and made the world should do so at their own expense or in their own time. As should Atheists. Or Hindus. Or Muslims. Or for that matter, Marxists".

Well as a taxpayer, I disagree and want the option to send my kids to a school that supports our faith. I also think there should be non-faith based schools for people who don't want that, perhaps in the majority to reflect our society.

There's room for everyone, surely? I think faith schools should NOT be catchment based and that people who don't want this sort of education should not be forced to send their kids to a faith school purely on the basis that it's their local school. That's not right either.

LadyBiscuit · 10/09/2010 22:10

This is a wind up. dolly is usually a sensible posster

MmeBlueberry · 10/09/2010 22:11

What is wrong with specific interest groups?

Why should atheist interests trump Christian interests?

They shouldn't given that Christians give far more to communities that atheists ever do. Just look around. The whole reason that there is a discussion about faith schools is because Christians have put schools in the community long before secular folk even thought they were important.

I would far rather that Christians run their local communities that government initiatives.

TheFallenMadonna · 10/09/2010 22:14

But Henny - what if you don;t want to send your child to the next village, or the one beyond that, in order to avoid a faith school? Your solution only provides for people who are happy for their children to travel for a secular education. Most people would rather go local surely?

LadyBiscuit · 10/09/2010 22:34

Sorry, entirely wrong thread Blush

LadyBiscuit · 10/09/2010 22:37

ETA: But given that I'm here, I do take exception to the statement that christians give far more to their communities than atheists do. Bollocks! Christians give to their own communities. They give jack shit the wider community in my experience.

MmeBlueberry · 10/09/2010 22:38

Rubbish.

seeker · 10/09/2010 22:39

:Why should atheist interests trump Christian interests?"

They shouldn't. I don;'t believe in state funded atheist schools either. But if, MmeBuleberry, I have to explain the difference between secular and atheist to you, as well as the difference between selection on ability and selection on belonging to a particular religion and the difference between state grammar schools and private schools then we may be here longer than either of us wish.

MmeBlueberry · 10/09/2010 22:46

If you don't think atheist values should trump Christian values, why do you think that atheist school funding should trump Christian school funding?

Why does it matter to you? Seriously.

LadyBiscuit · 10/09/2010 22:49

Quite, seeker. I haven't got involved in this discussion because I get so terribly bored of the circular arguments.

As I've said before, 7 of the 8 primary schools in a 2 mile radius discrimininate on grounds of faith. That gives me very little choice.

LadyBiscuit · 10/09/2010 22:50

It's secular mmeblueberry, not atheist. Huge difference.

TheFallenMadonna · 10/09/2010 22:52

I am a secularist wrt education MmeB - as well as a God-botherer.

MmeBlueberry · 10/09/2010 22:57

semantics, schemantics

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 10/09/2010 22:58

I just want to say that I've just fucked my neck up catching a cup that was falling out of a cupboard, so typing is now tricky. I BET it's a judgement from God.

seeker · 10/09/2010 22:58

"If you don't think atheist values should trump Christian values, why do you think that atheist school funding should trump Christian school funding?

Why does it matter to you? Seriously."

Do you seriously not know the difference between atheist and secular? Seriously? Or are you just taking the piss?

HouseOfBamboo · 10/09/2010 23:01

Mme Bluberry - here you go [helpful Smile ]:

Secularity

Atheism

MmeBlueberry · 10/09/2010 23:05

I know the difference between atheist and secular, but IMO, and IME, those who make a fuss about secular are atheists.

It is quite incompatible to me for Christians to be totally hands-off nnd politically correct. Christianity is a way of life, not something restricted to a Sunday morning.

pointydog · 10/09/2010 23:06

State schools should be secular, not atheist. There's an important difference.

Faith schools should not be state funded. They are exclusive. If parents want to pay for their faith to be promoted in school, fair enough.

Spacehopper5 · 10/09/2010 23:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

pointydog · 10/09/2010 23:07

It's not all about you, mme

FuzzFace · 10/09/2010 23:07

'the sun shines upon the evil and the good alike, the rain falls upon the righteous and the unrighteous' - in other words bad things happen to good people, and good things to bad people. TheCoalition those were Jesus words not mine. I hope you feel better soon.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 10/09/2010 23:08

MmeBlueberry - who is asking you to be?

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 10/09/2010 23:09

Thanks fuzzface ;)

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 10/09/2010 23:12

mme - there is nothing wrong with special interest groups. There is nothing wrong with special interest groups having state resources reserved for them. There is a problem if reserving state resources for special interest groups is not a net benefit.