to believe Faith schools should be privately funded ?

[Peetle]

I should explain my interest. The nearest primary school to my house is about 250 yards away and involves crossing two not very busy roads. It is a faith school. The next nearest is about 300 yards away, across a major road and in the middle of a council estate. It's ofsted report full of phrases like "higher than average English as a second language", "higher than average free school meals", etc, etc. Other local schools are over a mile away and we're likely to be out of their catchment area.

To get into the faith school families have to attend our local place of worship regularly for two years, know the officials and prove regular financial donations to the establishment. Of course, once these families have got their first child into the school they stop attending and donating. I also know of families of different and even contradictory faiths attending purely to get their children into the school. And I frequently see people picking up their children in cars, suggesting they live considerably further from it than we do.

We have no hope of getting into this school, not being hypocrites and not wishing to give our children the idea that it's alright to be dishonest about something if you want it badly enough.

My point is that I don't mind people wanting to give their children an education in their chosen faith, but I object to my taxes funding a school I can't use and which encourages parents to profess a religious belief they don't hold purely for the purposes of entry.

There you go cherry-picking again.

Honestly, if you are happy about your child's education, then don't sweat the small stuff.

It's like when my husband is snoring and I decamp to the spare room. I can't hear him snoring any more, but I know he is still snoring and I try (and sometimes fail) to not get irritated by it.

Just be happy that others are happy. Or even joyful.

"There you go cherry-picking again."

Eh?

Seeker why do you get to decide whether you daughter has faith or not. Surely she is intelligent enough to decide for herself whether or not to believe what her RE lessons are teaching her? Why does your daughter automatically have to share your views on faith? Are you afraid she will be brainwashed?

Your intellect is stronger than that, seeker.

Let me remove that speck, shall I?

She doesn't have to share my views. That is why I think it is very important that RE is taught in schools. I just do not want my child to be expected to practice any religion in school. Learn about - yes. Do - no.

I honestly do not understand you, MmeBlueberry. My fault, I'm sure. I do not see the connection between selecting on the ability to do IQ tests at 10 - which I don't agree with, and selecting on whether or not your parents go to church at 4, which I don't agree with.

I think both faith and grammar schools should be privately funded.

Both situations have the word 'selection' in them.

One suits you, the other doesn't. Is that the 'H' word, possibly?

What about schools with a focus on sports/ the arts, etc? Should the state withdraw funding for these schools on the grounds that they discriminate against children who do not have these talents and their tax-paying parents?

Please correct me if I'm wrong but the arguments against faith schools still seem to be based in the notion that 'I want the whole education system to reflect my anti-religious worldview.'

23balloons, would you honestly like to have to send your DCs to a school run by (some non-mainstream religion) because that was the only one available for you? I'm assuming you're a Christian, maybe I'm wrong, but I think there are aspects of the LDS or the Jehovahs Witness faiths that you might take issue with if you weren't a member of either of those religious groups, and worry about having your child pick up ideas you would rather not have them thinking about? It hasn't come up yet, but as a Christian, would you be happy sending a child to a Muslim school?

Sending a child to a school where a philosophy is broadcast daily that contradicts what the child's parents believe is an intrusion into the parents' right to bring up their child as they please with the religion or philosophy they wish to pass on to him or her. If they are to accomplish this at home, why is a school allowed to contradict whatever message they may be receiving at home?

I'm RC and would not send a child of mine to a school run by any other religious group. I would be happy to send them to a secular school (actually oldest DCs went to public high school in the US).

I don't think 'specialist' schools are particularly useful either TBH - so I'd get rid of them too

Speedy, yes you are wrong.

Mme Blueberry there are plenty of problems with grammar schools but it is fatuous to suggest that selecting by ability is equivalent to selecting by parental religious observance. There is a broad consensus that one of the aims of education is to allow children to fulfil their potential, whatever their abilities. Grammar schools are one (flawed) answer to this. There is certainly no such consensus that the availability of schools should vary according to children's cultural heritage - indeed in any other area of state provision this would be deemed absolutely unacceptable.

I'm not anti-religious. I am religious. Completely wrong speedy.

MmeBlueberry, the analogy is bonkers, and you know it.

Did you read my post where I said I don't approve of selection by ability either? No? As usual, you decide what people think and plough on, regardless of whether the facts support your analysis or ot!

Bonkers from a Seeker-centric view, but not from a Blueberry-centric view.

Zepherine, I didn't say it was equivalent, I intimated that it was a parallel.

The OP was whinging about not wantingbeing able to use her nearest school, which was outrage as she is a taxpayer.

But plenty of taxpayers can't use the school on their doorstep (grammar, single sex). The issue is not limited to faith schools (and many faith schools do have an intake that reflects the community).

To not take note of this makes for a hypocritic viewpoint.

Well, could you explain it so that a Seeker of very little brain could understand?

mathanxiety I don't think seeker's daughter is attending the type of school you describe. She is attending a grammar school with one hour RE per week I don't think that would be enough to convert a complete non-believer but I think it would be her daughter's decision not hers if she wished to explore faith.

I believe she has said she chose the grammar school and I hardly think an hour of RE will harm her daughter. And no as a Cathloic myself I wouldn't send my children to a Muslim school.

Seeker also has ishoos with private schools, all the while her DD is in a grammar school.

A hearty hmmmmm

You know, I think it is possible for someone to exploit a system for their best advantage at the same time as saying the system should not be set up in a way that allows them to expolit it.

MmeBlueberry - it's not small stuff. Why are you having a go at seeker instead of addressing the issues.

I think it is possible, but also undesirable. I don't send my children to a faith school, and my parents didn't send me to a grammar. You can do as you choose, but if you say one thing and do another, someone is going to call you on it.

Nothing wrong with you arguing back though of course

It is small stuff when you are 'thank you very much' to the flawed system.

We have over 60 million people in the UK, most of them living in densely populated urban areas.

It is no big deal to bypass the nearest school to go to one which matches your values.

I don't see why taxpayers who have Christian values should be second class citizens to those with more hedonistic lifestyles.

We have lived in the USA where public schools are totally secular and I found them to be totally souless places where faith is actually repressed. I would not want this to be replicated in the UK.

We have opted out of the state system mainly because of poor behaviour and expectations, but I would be multiply convicted if it were for idealogically faith-opposed reasons.

I feel very sorry for children whose parents deny them their basic human rights of exploring their own faith.

"I don't see why taxpayers who have Christian values should be second class citizens to those with more hedonistic lifestyles"

Good God Mme Blueberry, can you hear yourself?

MmeBlueberry - It's not about values. It's about state resources being reserved for particular interest groups, without evidence that this is a net benefit to society. That is unjust.

I'm not sure that Chistianity is any barrier to a hedonistic life style, not lack of christianity a barrier to asceticism. Are you really just trying to say that Christians are better people?

I'm sorry you didn't have a good experience of the US system - I assume you aren't claiming that it is representative or that schools in the UK would necessarily become like that.

I hope that private education works well for you - I think that is the appropriate route if you want education tailored to you.

I feel sorry for those children too. Whatever faith or non-faith they are.

Oh, to live in a police state.