To expect good grammar from a year three teacher?

[MrsFC]

I live in zone four of East London, and while I am originally not from that area and have a different accent, DC, DP, CM, exDH and all DC's friends do, and have a fairly pronounced East London accent.

Now: I have NOTHING against an accent from anywhere in the country, I really don't. But I DO have issues with the bad grammar that can sometimes come with it, for example:

'we done this at school today Mummy'
'Where is the book we was reading Mummy'
'I didn't eat nuffink for lunch today'

I have spent the past five years patiently correcting DC and explaining basic correct grammar to him. I also explain that while lots of the grown ups he knows speak incorrectly, he must not correct them, but must listen to how his teacher and I speak. I am lucky in that he is a competent and avid reader and so I have been encouraging him to read Harry Potter books to try and instill it in him further (top tip - if you want your son to read Harry Potter, buy the Lego DS Game - it worked for me!)

Anyway - I digress. I went to pick up DS from school yesterday and they came out of a different gate.When we found them his new teacher said to me:

'I'm sorry you wasn't told'

I was taken aback and mentioned it to another Mum friend of mine with a child in the same year(I could only mention it to this one friend as the other Mums probably wouldn't have noticed TBH). She smiled and said I was being a bit snobby.

What do you think? And what would you do, if anything?

Oops, a bit late on the BODMAS thing... sorry!

He's wasted on you...

I can't speak for all schools, LeQ (particularly when I teach in Scotland and the whole system is different), but your everyday run-of-the-mill letters tend to be typed quickly by office staff - many of the mistakes could be excused through typos - however the more specialised ones are often written by individuals on the SMT (each member of SMT has a specific role and they each have responsibility for a year group). It can be embarrassing...

my eyes! my eyes!

Strix - I had a 'discusion' with a teacher about this very thing recently...

For example, when (as I have heard they will) a teacher tells my children that 2 + 3 x 5 - 7 = 18 you can bet your high horse I will be sitting in that teachers classroom explaining to her that 2 + 3 x 5 - 7 = 10.

It was in a social situation, so I don't have a Head Teacher to go and stomp my foot to [grrr] - I mean really

S'dialect, innit?

MrsFC I hate to say it, but as a secondary teacher of twenty years' experience, there is widespread abuse of the basics of English grammar, spelling and syntax among many members of the teaching community. Interestingly, this is not restricted to the younger teachers but evidenced throughout the age range of staff. As a linguist I find this tragic, but I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that the wheel turns, and noted that 'Eats Shoots & Leaves' was a best-seller a few years ago. Usage of correct grammar and correct enunciation and pronunciation will differentiate your DCs at all stages of their schooling/careers, so my advice is to stick with the correction. My grown DCs all speak well and have been selected at all their job interviews, so I don't begrudge the years of correction, although I do wish that teachers in general were capable of setting a better example :)

"Eats Shoots and Leaves" is a flamin' travesty of linguistics. Grr. Shame that David Crystal's riposte didn't sell so well, given that he Actually Knows What He's Talking About.

Well, this is a topic that I HAVE VIEWS on. It is not snobbish to mind about correct grammar. Speaking with an strong working class accent is possible without using poor grammar, and to suggest that people can't help is to have low expectations of them and not to correct it in pupils is to damage their life chances.
I write as a secondary school English teacher who lives and works in East London. In my department are two teachers of different ages raised in the area, with strong Essex accents. Neither of them would have dreamed of saying "We was" to our pupils. It would be insulting. However, I know lots of teachers that do and I hate it. A generation of working class kids have already grown up thinking that it's alright to talk that way because they weren't corrected (out of fear of being seen as snobbish)and now they have degrees and are teaching other kids to talk that way.
My DS is at a local nursery and now says "Nuffink". I gently correct it without wincing.....

Well, it's not "not ok" to ever use these terms, just to know which contexts in which to use them.

The use of "wasn't" in the original example is not "poor grammar" in some working class accents. It's simply grammar in a non-standard English. My Irish accent and Hiberno-Englishisms did not prevent me from gaining two first class honours degrees from redbrick universities, or impact upon me pursuing a postgraduate research degree.

If the use of a non-standard English dialect damages life chances, it's because of snobbishness that says it's not 'alright to talk that way'.

Incidentally, saying "nuffink" with a bilabial fricative vs an interdental one medially relates to accent, not grammar.

Habibu, yes! I wish David Crystal did sell more and perhaps this conversation would be exposed as snobbery vs educational concern.

I agree Habbibu. For example I won't mind if my son uses to use street slang when out with his mates (not that "innit" will still be around when he's a teenager!) as long as he doesn't use it in the classroom. I say this to my pupils all the time. They have a completely valid way of communicating with their mates that isn't acceptable in a formal situation. You can absolutely do both, just as you can speak more than one language.

yes, and I think teaching in this was, promoting bidialectism, if you like, is the best way to introduce Standard English, or SSE, or I guess a standard Irish English (arses - ring any bells?), as you're not trying to alienate the child from their local community and their linguistic norms, but to allow them to move freely across communities.

SE is a tool, a lingua franca. It's not so much correct as handy.

Being very agreeable tonight but I agree with arses too. I probably used bad examples. I do of course agree that dialect is different to poor grammar but I can't think of better examples right now.

YADNBU

When I did my A levels (1995) you needed two grade Es to qualify for teacher training. I think that speaks volumes.

I would expect a teacher to use correct English in the presence of my child regardless of their native accent/dialect. I also see nothing wrong with correcting your teacher (I used to do it myself). Respect must be earned and if you're a poor role model, you're going to have to work a bit harder to gain that respect. I don't want my child blindly believing that the person in the position of authority is always right - even when they are wrong!

I'm astounded that letters typed by admin staff aren't proofread by someone with the adequate ability (who's hiring all these people who can't spell/use basic grammar BTW?!). It's simply unprofessional for a head teacher to allow her/his school to produce official documents containing errors. I'm not interested in how busy said heads are. Standards purvey every part of a school and the head should be upholding them.

I speak as someone who has a pronounced working class accent but very few examples of dialect in my speech (I can only think of one, I call my family "our"[insert name]). I work incredibly hard to command respect in my City job and know some clients have been sniffy about using me because they don't believe anyone with an accent like mine can be good at my job. I went to a sink estate comp and I'm first generation university educated. I'm NOT speaking from some position of privilege/snobbery.

Post script: Have just heard something on Crimewatch be described as "Very Unique" [Tuts and rolls eyes]

The thing is, whatever you think of dialects and regional accents, whether you embrace them, laugh at them, or study them (I've done plenty of that BTW), you can't ignore the fact that if your children only speak in their local accent and local dialect they will be socially disadvantaged. When they grow up and move to other areas, unless they can speak in a standard way (and here in Scotland, for instance, that doesn't necessarily mean an RP accent) they will be assumed to be an educational level or two below those who do speak in a standard way.

"When I did my A levels (1995) you needed two grade Es to qualify for teacher training."

I find that astonishing and quite saddening, really. That said, some of my colleagues are very highly qualified but are poor teachers. Others have 2:2/3rd class degrees yet are excellent.

Is it true that in England and Wales you do not even have to be a qualified teacher to teach (if that question makes sense!)?

misrisotto thank you for the link!! I haven't seen the sketch before - it's Pedant's Porn!!

There's nothing wrong with "I was only asking," whether written or spoken, and whether you're Irish or not.

I completely agreed with the OP on incorrect grammar. As far as I'm concerned that would be totally inappropriate as it is a case of grammar rather than accent.

Then I thought back to my childhood in Cornwall. Some of the teachers were Cornish born and bred, and instead of "it is" or "it's" would say "tis".
Is this grammar or accent? And why would I find it unacceptable for somebody to say "you wasn't" but not mind "tis"? Is it because one pronunciation has a sort of Eastenders chav association, and Cornish is thought of as rather a charming accent?

Btw I don't have a Cornish accent as my dad wasn't Cornish, and it's the sort of accent you lose pretty quickly when you move away for some reason.