To think that those who persistantly start Muslim-bashing threads should get a life.

[GothAnneGeddes]

I'm sick of the same names spewing the same arguments, with the same inability to use Google to find out what other Muslim women think (as any Muslim women who post are not deemed sufficiently Muslim to matter.)

I'm sick of Saudi Arabia always being mentioned, when only about 1% of the world's Muslims live there. Talking about Saudi Arabia to condemn all Muslims should be viewed in the same manner as Godwin's Law.

If you are that concerned about the wellbeing of Muslim women, give some money to the Pakistani flood survivors.

Yup - I agree with OP - there are some regulars who appear to islam bash - but it's the same posters who say that girls with earrings are 'chavscum' etc.

But if you've lived in a country with very bad experiences, naturally it will colour your viewpoint.

My view is that I have MY point of view gathered from my experiences and upbringing. Yeah - sure there are certainly women who are being controlled by men in the islamic world - but ffs - there are many women who are being controlled by very educated western men etc. I find that many of my peers 10 years ago (when in 30's) had serious eating distorders to get and stay thin and their lives revoloved around this - being thin to get a 'nice' man - to be what men wanted them to be. In my view it's all part of the same thing.

My view is that that you cannot fight ignorance - it's there - it's there to stay and those regulars who go on about other cultures in the guise of feminism are what they are - hateful. Nothing else.

Islam is no worse or no better than any other culture borne of a religion.

Yup - I agree with OP - there are some regulars who appear to islam bash - but it's the same posters who say that girls with earrings are 'chavscum' etc.

But if you've lived in a country with very bad experiences, naturally it will colour your viewpoint.

My view is that I have MY point of view gathered from my experiences and upbringing. Yeah - sure there are certainly women who are being controlled by men in the islamic world - but ffs - there are many women who are being controlled by very educated western men etc. I find that many of my peers 10 years ago (when in 30's) had serious eating distorders to get and stay thin and their lives revoloved around this - being thin to get a 'nice' man - to be what men wanted them to be. In my view it's all part of the same thing.

My view is that that you cannot fight ignorance - it's there - it's there to stay and those regulars who go on about other cultures in the guise of feminism are what they are - hateful. Nothing else.

Islam is no worse or no better than any other culture borne of a religion.

In reality, I am a 'live and let live' person and have friends of all faiths and none.

In my private thoughts - which you are now all privy to! - I think all religion is absolute bollocks: misogynistic, outdated, just another form of social and mental control, designed to keep people in their place. That includes Islam.

I don't have any problem with religion, just don't foist your beliefs onto your innocent children.

Goth - and note I seem to have killed PP's thread with the same attitude - that of non hatred.

I continually ask questions on threads about Islam but I rarely get any serious answers, I get told 'I'm not explaining it again'.

I wasn't there for the first explanation so I keep asking.

I find it odd that we're criticised for not asking muslim women what they think, then flamed for doing so rather than 'educating ourselves'.

I will question any religion, culture or society that I think looks unequal in it's treatment of men and women, all day long. If I was to criticise sexism that occurred outwith religion I wouldn't be accused of 'bashing' yet religious people don't want me to question any aspect of their lifestyle or beliefs. Which says it all to me - their beliefs are based upon dogma and do not stand up to objective scrutiny.

the saudi thing is quite reasonable though - it's not exactly a tiny outpost of islam is it . certainly not bankrolling the spread of radical wahabiism - oh no. remind me again - sept 11 - nationalities? oh yes - afghani wasn't it cos that's why we're at war with them? or did Bush Blair get that a bit confused?

I think there are a lot of threads bashing religion on here generally - some aimed at Islam, some at Christianity (and within that lots aims at Catholicism)

I would really love it if we could differentiate between bashing a religion and questioning certain practices of that religion. I'm a Christian and there are practices within my own faith that I question. I think that's no bad thing.

I find the "go away and educate yourself on google" responses very bizarre. Surely you could write that in answer to 95% of the threads on Mumsnet? We are here on a discussion board. If you've had a particular question asked of you before and you're fed up of answering it, that's ok. Let that one pass you by and let someone else get it this time. But surely you don't really want people to stop asking questions and instead rely on any number of dubious websites??

I've had this quite recently; someone keeps accusing me of trying to stifle debate about religion and so I've been pondering. In this example, the reason I don't get in to it is because the conversation always seems to be a long tirade about how all religions are the source of all evil and nobody rational or intelligent could possibly believe in one. There's no grace, there's no open questioning, and so to me THAT'S not discussing. That's ranting. I find that as offensive as someone with faith ranting that everyone without faith is going to hell over and over. I want dialogue, dammit. I want to learn. I want to grow.

So there

"I don't have any problem with religion, just don't foist your beliefs onto your innocent children."

Or, even more pertinently, on other people's innocent children!

YANBU. I stay away from these threads now. Am not Muslim, but think that once you start restricting one's right to practice religion, then it's a slippery slope.

It's difficult though as think it should be discussed, but at the same time, it's difficult to explain one's beliefs as they are very personal. I don't think it's right to put someone in the position where they feel as if they have to defend their religion. But at the same time some people will say that the burka/hijab is not religious, but cultural....

giveitago......Isn't thread killing when you are the last poster?

Posie, am genuinely curious, why were you scared in Marrakesh?
I didn't feel like that at all there, in parts of India, definitely.

I think there is much more free rein on Christianity on mn. loads more bashing going on there.

Egypt treats women differently under the law.

Because every time I entered a shop the men would crowd you in and make it difficult to get out, also found the letching and staring and general lack of female faces really unnerving.

Strange, didn't feel like that at all in Marrakesh 8 years ago, though DH was offered some camels for me, are you blonde? I did experience similar in Jaipur and Delhi. Though DH was more harassed being blonde and fair, at one point we had a trail of people following us through a town and people would move their kids near us to try and get DH in their photos.

Yes I'm blonde. I was also about 24 and I was not with a DH/DP.

We can't deny other people's experiences. I note that women talk about the very lovely responses they have had when wearing a hijab in visiting Moslem countries, ie paying respect t to tradition and culture. very sensible and something I've always done. it's not part of western culture to wear a mask, however, so it's possible that people feel there is an issue of cultural respect there with regard to wearing the niqab or burkha in the UK.

being of one culture and living in another doesn't mean YOUR culture automatically becomes that of the country you're living in. Expats who behave that way are pretty ghastly and presumptuous. I would say the same probably applies the other way round.

we could have a thread saying what we like about religions? they're not totally pernicious! it would help foster respect.

Morris Zapp - I am almost certain that I've posted links for you before. What else do you want?

Muslim women do try and give explanations here, but then they are told that we aren't typical (e.g) the stereotypical Muslim women, so our opinions don't count.

If someone is genuinely interested, I don't mind explaining things, but if someone is coming out with a load of half truths and bigotry, I don't feel duty bound to hold their hand.

For example,

If you were to ask the mums of SN children on here "What is it like having an SN child?", you'd get a decent response.

Whereas, if you said, "What's it like being a mum to SN kids? I've heard you get loads freedies and it's a bit of a blag" You wouldn't.

What do I want? Er, I want your own opinion, not links. That's why I ask for it.

I have never once made remarks about Muslim women on a par with getting freebies etc. I keep asking why do you cover yourselves when the men and boys don't, and have not yet been told why.

The best explanation I get is that in the Koran, it says that both men and women should dress modestly. So why do I only ever see women and girls wearing religious dress in this country, that is the main question I have.

If you asked me anything about my own lifestyle or choices I'd say 'I do it because...'. I wouldn't sigh and then post up a link. And them moan that nobody wanted to know what I thought.

If I tell you what I think, someone will come on here (as has happend before) and say "Ah, but that's just you, what about all the poor women in Saudi?".

So then I post a link to give a wider view and you can't be arsed reading it.

If you were that interested, if you really wanted to inform yourself, you would read the link, or maybe even do some googling yourself and then come back and ask questions if you really wanted to know.

If you say thay makes me meeeeeeeeeaaaan and Muslims deserve to suffer because I don't want to do an Islam 101 for everyone on the internet who asks, well, that says more about you then it does about me.

Ok so you aren't able to discuss or illuminate your views, but take offence that I don't want to know what your views are.

I can't think of a single other subject on here where my questioning would be met with 'educate yourself. Go on google'. We're all here to chat and debate aren't we?

I do have a question that I really want to know.

Why, in the UK, do Muslim women and girls cover themselves, but boys and men don't? I'm not asking for muslim 101, I'm asking you personally a question on an internet forum - why are you here if you don't want to chat?

YANBU - I too am sick of the Islam bashing threads and it is always the same people, seems like they have a deep hatred, are not open to learning or understanding at all, why do you bother? If you don't like Islam then tough, its not going to change to please you.

NarkyPuffin - Your story about your friend who had to do all the housework and marry her cousin etc is an isolated example of one family it does not mean that Islam is to blame. It is the same as me saying I knew an English girl at school who got pregnant at 15 whose boyfriend beat her then started pinping her out, then saying that Christianity is to blame because the guy was from a white christian family.
There are ignorant and evil people in all walks of life, some of who will use religion to manipulate others.

Morris - You cannot deny that the above tactic gets used on Muslim women all the time on MN.

Your question is somewhat of a generalisation. I live in a very Muslim area. It's common to see men and boys in Shalwar Khalmeez (long tunic top and loose pants). The women wear similar, with the only difference being a hijab or loose scarf called a dupatta on top. The men may sometimes wear a small hat called a kufi, or a turban on top.

Likewise, I might see I woman wearing a long sleeved dressed called an abaya, and a man may wear something similar called a thobe. The man may also wear this with a type of head covering too.

So as you can see, in traditional forms of Islamic dress, there is only a small amount of difference in the amount of flesh covered. It is only with the adoption of western- type dress that any divide has become noticable. As Puss said, men should dress themselves appropriately too. That they don't is their decision. I do feel that far less women are 'forced' to dress a certain way then everyone on here thinks.

Me and my husband went on holiday recently, for most of the time I wore a tunic top + jeans + hijab, he wore long sleeved tshirt + jeans + baseball cap. Not a great deal of difference in the amount of coverage really.

I appreciate your answer GAG.

Where I live (Edinburgh) I rarely see men wearing anything but western dress, though I often see women wearing religious covering, in the company of men dressed in non-religious clothing.

I dunno. I've been told before that it's up to men how they interpret the 'rules' if that's what they are, and that it isn't up to women to make men cover up. I do get that, but it just leaves me wondering why the men themselves - who are presumably just as devout, committed to religion etc as the women - don't think they have to show it through their choice of clothing.

Is it just a huge coincidence that for some random reason, vastly more women than men in the religions of the world think that they should wear clothing as an expression of faith? It's hard for me to accept that, becuase sexism exists so deeply in so many cultures - including my own ie non religious urban Scot - and I'm naturally suspect of anything that looks as though it asks more from women than it does from men.

I remember the little girls in my primary school who wore saris over trousers (different religion, but similar debate) and who would sit out any physical activity in the playground while their brothers ran around enjoying themselves in shorts etc.

I can't accept that those little girls (aged from 5 up) had simply decided randomly and spontaneously that they wanted to live like that. It was just what they did, becuase it was what they were born to and brought up with. By the time they were old enough to make their own decisions then of course they'd have said 'but I want to wear this' the same way I'd say 'but I want to be a liberal atheist' or whatever.