to think that unless you spend £££, houses in the UK are not very functional??

[PussinJimmyChoos]

Seriously...what is it with houses in this bloody country (and yes, I am English!)...they are so NOT designed for family life....poxy pokey 3rd bedrooms, kitchens you can't swing a cat in, only one bathroom in most houses and no space for entertaining....

It pisses me off!! Struggling with space in our house atm and just thinking that if a bit more thought went into the design of it, it wouldn't be as much of an issue

And why are so many new builds so small?!!!!

Um, no, Coalition, it's not just that houses are too expensive. It's also that multiple home ownership is encouraged (not taxed heavily the way it is in other places), that tenancy laws are appalling (so many many people took on huge financial risk to buy so as to have a secure continous place to live), that developers are allowed to determine size rather than the European system of minimum sizing), planning laws (that don't allow people to build more environmentally friendly homes on their property but do allow greedy developers to cram in loads of ill-built, ill-designed boxes), un-environmentally friendly boxes, etc. I can keep going.

Too easy to say, 'Oh, well, people who complain about the housing here it's just that it's too expensive, small island blah blah blah.'

That's lazy.

And of course, it doesn't address the real problems such ill-designed, ill-built, unaffordable housing cause now and will cause in the future for the UK's children.

Because of course, the government and its policies continue to feed and protect the bubble for obvious reasons, and so do borrowers and homeowners. Not to mention the pervasive sense of I'm-Allright-Jack.

We rent. This is a HA flat. We could just stay here till time immortal and be like, 'Well, fuck it and fuck all you with housing problems'. But that's smug, lazy and pathetic.

The population has increased,yes, and how much is it due to old British people who just won't die off! Are they part of the 'takers' you're talking about? And children not working at 16. Takers, too?

World population has increased.

OMG! How shocking!

No it's not that houses overall are too expensive (though they are!), it's that one needs to spend a heck of a lot more £££ here to get a functional, modernly plumbed, warm house here than in most countries in the developed world. Before I came here I lived in a VERY expensive place cost-of-living wise (Whistler) and while the houses there are definitely very expensive, for the price one pays here for a house/flat stuck in the 50's amenities-wise you would at least get something there with modern plumbing and electrics and heat. If you're lucky enough to be able to buy in Whistler, which is also very constrained by space.

x-post with expat

Ah, so you're just talking about children and old people Alouiseg? Yet you referred earlier to the people who 'come' being net takers.

Nice save.

Whistler!

Anyhow, yes, you put it much better, canuck.

The cost of this moderisation, too, will increase with VAT rise next year.

who said anything about 'come' I certainly didn't

Expat - multiple home ownership and planning laws are two of the things restraining supply.

There is a lot to be said for minimum standards - the problem is a) the strength of lobbying against it and b) we 'need' to cram more homes into a small area due to planning regs/distribution of work etc. Doing affordable AND decent size is tricky.

Expat/crazycanuck - Maybe my view is warped by the fact that last time I bought was right at the top of the boom (good timing...) but the most significant thing I noticed was that modernised/unmodernised houses (though all had heating inside plumbing etc) were being sold for exactly the same price.

So, in effect the amount of the valuation that was based on location etc. was entirely wiping out any effect based on how modernised/functional the house was. This means people don't have any motivation to modernise to sell, only for their own use.

In all this hymn to Victorian terraces/boo hiss to newbuilds, I think I'm going against the flow a bit. I loved our two bedroom Victorian terrace but the walls were incredibly thin - not just internally but also with the neighbours. When next door smoked in their own house, our bathroom filled with cigarette smoke. One dreadful night we lay in bed and listened to the squeaks and the splashing as our brand new neighbours had sex in their bath on the other side of the wall. (The next day we went round and introduced ourselves and said hello, how nice to meet them, and we hoped our baby wouldn't disturb them as she was in our room and the walls between us are very thin. I think they understood.) The internal doors didn't shut properly and the whole place creaked. On the other hand our three storey townhouse (built 2001) has concrete floors, well fitting doors and even the plasterboard walls (although quite a few are solid) seem to muffle sound nicely.

Our townhouse has kitchen upstairs with the living room. People say it's a bit weird but I find it's like living in a normal house on stilts and much easier than having kitchen and living room on two floors. We have tall ceilings which really help. Downstairs we have a garage and a spare bedroom/reception/study with an en suite shower room. The only thing I do miss about our old house (beside the character and history) is the big bathroom with a window (because it was a converted bedroom).

Alouiseg- That may be the case in England but here in Scotland we are a big country with a small static population.

There is complete wilderness 10 miles out of the cities, yet most people are still living in tiny flats.

Most of the home-owning familes I know have no utility room, no dining space, no 2nd toilet, no bedroom for each child, no private garden, no double glazing but if that's what's normal for everyone else you know then you are happy with it.

foreverastudent - the problem there is planning. You can't keep the wilderness AND all have bigger houses.

I'm sorry, Alouiseg, you said:

'The net contributors are leaving and the people taking their places tend to be net takers.'

Forgive me for feeling pretty sure you weren't just talking about population increase.

Well I love my victorian terrace.

So it only has one bathroom and the washing machine is in the kitchen? How many times a day do you people use the loo anyway?

It has so much character and used to be a boarding house.

Interesting thread - I have to agree that UK housing can be impractical but our customs/ needs/ technology etc. are bound to change much faster than the housing stock can keep up with so I don't think it is a predominantly English problem. We do have a love affair with houses and gardens which is not always practical and certainly not the most environmentally friendly/ economic option. But I wouldn't want to live in the majority of flats you find in UK cities either so it is not easily resolved.

We have 'owned' (well mortgaged) two houses one a victorian maisonette in south London and now a 4 bed in commuting distance (just). The first was much easier to love as it was quirky and attractive with wood floors and cornicing and high ceilings etc. but as it had one bedroom and a 6'by 7' boxroom it could never be a family home.

Our new home is very practical as it has been extended and the garage converted so we have all the storage space and utility rooms etc you could wish for. The upstairs is plenty spacious but is smaller than downstairs which is much better than most four beds we saw. It is also ugly and has a looong list of minor diy/ re-decorating jobs needed to make it lovable.

We should have no trouble moving on when the time comes as we do not love it but - as my dd was born in the living room, I will always have an attachment to this place that has no connection to how it looks!

I think the cost of labour has a huge part to play in it as well. Again, making a comparison to DH's country, but over there, you want someone to come and fix your tap, do some building work - its affordable and no way would you have plumbers or builders earning more than doctors or lawyers, which does happen over here

DH has a degree and a masters and the plumber who did our central heating and the builder who did our bathroom - can safely say they earned more than DH and did not have to do night shifts, on call or holidays

'This means people don't have any motivation to modernise to sell, only for their own use.'

Yes, hence, mine and several other peoples' posts (canuck, pussinjimmychoos, the Aussie gal) about the whole stuck in the past, resistant to change mentality when it comes to housing. It leads to a lack of creativity and innovation when using what space there is when it comes to home design or remodelling. Hence, also, things like VAT on moderising or improving.

So both buyer and seller think, 'Yeah, this is still cool 70 years down the line of plumbing and electrical progress in the rest of the world, pay a packet for no shower, one loo, ancient wiring, damp piece of shit single glazed 'house'.'

It's a mentality that strikes some as very different indeed, especially when you consider how environmentally unfriendly it is and how much it can jack up bills on energy usage.

Things that irritate me about most houses: 'third bedrooms' that are actually box rooms/ only one loo and that one in the bathroom so if someone is having a bath, you have to cross your legs/ tiny kitchens with no room for a table and chairs.

I live in a townhouse and it is a real pain the bum having the sitting room and kitchen on different levels. Didn't realise this before we bought, stupidly, but we are constantly bringing cups and glasses up and downstairs.

Have just come back from a long weekend in a big manor house (courtesy of my Dad, bless him) and it was lovely. So much space for the children to run around, great big kitchen where we could all hang out (got 12 people round the table), a playroom and library and sitting room so everyone could do their own thing without getting under anyone else's feet. Kids particularly enjoyed the fact that many rooms were interconnecting so they could do a circuit through three rooms and round to the start again through the corridor.

Sadly unless I win the lottery I'm not going to be able to live somewhere like that - and it'd have to be a rollover!

My house is a Victorian terrace, and it certainly isn't without its flaws, but the walls are prison thick.

Ideally I'd like in an ecohouse, but I'm not prepared to pay or move (selfish I know)

I think modernising such as installing thicker or triple-glazed windows, re-wiring, re-plumbing and the like should be VAT free. It's better for the environment long-term, brings down bills/energy consumption, better for decreasing fire risks.

I could go on and on.