To be really cross that David Cameron wants to limit useage of Sure Start Centre to families on low incomes.

[Housewife2010]

I have used them for the last 3 years & the majority of the mothers there are middle class. If they didn't go, the places I go to would be almost enmpty.
I use them a lot and my children have got a lot out of the classes/events there. We may not be poor, but our household income has dropped a lot since I gave up work to bring up our children. It is very helpful to be able to take them to some free classes and meet other local families.

Sancti, with respect (as I know you are gonig through a terrible time, I really do) a lot of things are hard to do when you're depressed. But sometimes it is better to stop talking and to just do. So that might mean getting up and just going.

Noone ever regrets gonig for a walk, they really don't.

I would never consider myself to have been clinically depressed but I do know that exercise (free exercise, walking or running) has lifted my mood immeasurably. I wish I had found this out many years ago. I know wouldn't dream of a week passing without exercising as it keeps me happy.

I was terribly depressed after dd's birth - exacerbated by the fact that dd's dad had buggered off, and had no family.

I was going nuts walking round the house in despair.

best thing I ever did for my mental health (and the happiness of my daughter) was to get a job.

being out the house for 40 hours a week FORCED not to think about myself was the best treatment ever. Still veer from depressive episode to despair and back 15 years on, but I have no doubt that work saved my bacon, frankly.

yes it's been proven than baby massage is beneficial to mothers and babies - especially babies who are premature or who have disabilities, and to mothers who are struggling to bond with their babies
but you could have found that out by googling
did you think i just made it up?

'Baby massage classes are increasingly popular and many health visitors are undertaking training to run them. This paper looks at the evidence base for baby massage. A systematic review of the research-based evidence identified four articles that met the inclusion criteria i.e. they were research-based articles looking at the effects of hands-on massage of babies and infants. The findings are synthesised and the research is critically reviewed. Insufficient evidence is found for the continued massage of pre- term and low birthweight infants in neonatal intensive care units.'

(from Arse's link)

It would seem so Kooks.

What are you googling then? Tesco Baby Club?

I think that might have been a bit out of date though - not really sure about this study but it suggests advancements in research in this area too:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20137814

MD- no respect needed, I am not depressed and am quite able to go for a walk! have been reusing teh new arrchaeological findings in the village this very afternoon- (we seem to have a Rroman city now). And am off to Snowdonia on Monday- hurrah! DH has been very severely depressed post dx though so I know of the horrors (though he was beyond the going for a walk stage, tbh more borderline sectioning).

I can remember the mum who was efectively dumped in our area after being in a refuge unable to conatct anyone from her family or fiath group becuase of teh risk her DH would find her, and how we were able to pull together a team to help, including birth aprtners fror the baby she was carrying;

A woman who after eyarrs as being written off as unreachable disclosed serious abuse;

A child who was being neglected and we found it out at group;

ane many more things that would be too identifying to put down but I would place money we saved at least child's life.

And you know I agree about excercise but then on another thread parks are threatened. Which seems an enormous shame as well.

Well I hope you have a lovely time.It's my neck of the woods so let me know if you want recommendations for nice things to see/do.
Whereabouts will you be roughly?

I needto reiterate that I have no doubt that CC's are a good thing and havehelped many individuals. The argument for keeping them open (and offering what they do gratis to so many) has to be a bit stronger then that though..

Thanks, we're at beddgelert- should be good, somewhere I always wanted to visit.

I think as a central base for a community rpesence of people who will be involed and have decent professional aims, and along with a few charities for support and other purposes (A CAB venue would be good) tehy ahve a very real case argument, I honestly do.

If we get into teh lesser stuff that detrracts from what it can really achieve.

It should be about giving a central point to a community and about trying to motivate it to build it's own resources; provide the central and keep an eye out for those who can manage the peripheral stuff. Someone knocks on my door tomorrow and says here, we're building one in the viillage, would you do an SN group? and I will say yes, and i'd do it for free too, for the dissertation.

Not spoon feedinga s much as hgiving a central link to often quite transient communities to form teh bonds that can make adifference and ultimately stop a lot of state dependancy.

How much that relates to what is out there now going from some of these posts is debatable, but it's a very vaild case nonetheless.

moondog it seems like you are more interested in insulting me, rather than getting accurate up to date information!
i will leave you to it

Oh, you'll have a lovely time.
I am there very often.

Make sure you get an ice cream from the ice cream parlour in the centre of the village. People come from miles around. In the evening, you can get pizzas there too and bring your own wine. The pub opposite, the Tanronnen is lovely.

Drop into the visitor centre to get some maps for walks-don't just do the central village river walk. There is so much more to see than that. Then, when you see the Gelert's grave, carry on down the path a bit to the little cottage-there's a nice surprise in there.

The train from Caernarfon passes through the campsite. It's well worth a trip.

Down the road Porthmadog is a nice town. My kids love the crazy golf in the park. A visit to Portmeirion is essential too.

Just outside of Beddgelert is an RSPB post where you can check on progress (every year) of only pair of nesting ospreys in Wales. Watch CCTV,look through binoculars and so on.

Drive further on to the little village of Croesor at the foot of Cnicht which is magic. The little school closed a few years ago-only 4 kids. It has a great little art gallery and cafe and most magic of all, an open air swimming pool that one of the villagers built! It can be filled by diverting the stream. If you find the guy who did it (Tudr) he will probably do it for you. he did for me a few weeks ago! Takes about 45 mins. to fill completely.

For rainy days, Caernarfon has a great softplay centre in an old church (The Hwylfan/Fun Centre). Near it is a (very SN friendly) arts centre/cafe called Galeri which has films,shows, cafe and so on. It;s on the dock so nice to walk by the sea and see the huge fish in the marina. By the castle there's the 'Floating retaurant' which does great fish & chips. You can by crabbping lines in a little shop nearby and if you go over the bridge, you have the beach and a good park. You can drive all along this (someone will have to point you to the road to do it-not obvious),it's called the Foryd and is so wide and open and peaceful. We cockle and have picnics there a lot.

I would really really recommend a visit to a great cafe called 'Caban' in Brynrefail near Llanberis. Lovely place, fab food and wonderful safe garden to play in and afterwards you canstroll down to the bridge and very shallow lake to paddle.

If you are into archeology, Caernarfon has asmallbut interesting museum on remains of its Roman garrisson.

Re your points, I agree.The key is flexibility to meet the needs of the people served. The NHS isn't flexible at all in this way, which drives me nuts.

Thanks MD, will copy that and print to take with us.

Pleasure.
Remember to fill me in on how you get on.

Will do MD.

coraltoes

"Instead the more educated/ wealthy seem quite content to use a service that wasn't designed for them. I can see why, if spaces are available and it is cheap it is a no-brainer but this should not be at the cost of missing the real targets for the schemes."

Can't you see, people like me, who work and pay tax HAVE ALREADY PAID for this facility. My family is entitled to support as much as any other. It isn't just about money, there are mental health issues, isilation and just the sheer exhaustion of having young children whilst being pregnant.

These young Mums who have no intention of working are well aware of the Children's Centre but can not be arsed to attend. If people like me did not attend, there would be no one and it would close down.

I hate Dave. Really bad idea to make a facility available only to the 'poor' - how stigmatising then for those who go. Much better to have a social mix rather than a ghetto. If poorer parents aren't going then maybe they need more support to attend. I remember when I had DS 20 years ago as a teenager (well before surestart) and I didn't feel I could go to groups because I thought I'd be judged. Maybe if someone had gone with me maybe I'd have felt more confident.

Local SS here is entirely set up for non-working mothers and it seems as if the remote SS groups (in the surrounding villages) are taken over by MC mums while the young mums and people referred to the centre use the on-site groups more.
The MC mums pay £1 a group and complain about the food offered, eat most of it themselves and tend to be very clique-y. They are unfortunately the braying type and enjoy having loud conversations about their skiing lodges and second homes. I can absolutely see why anyone normal would not want to spend any time around them, regardless of class or income.
The SS centre itself is run mon-fri and during office hours. The lone parents club, for example, is early afternoon on a Wednesday. There is no provision for those who work office hours but would like to attend groups and there is a very strong sense of being run for the convenience of the staff, not reflecting the needs of the community at all.The manager told me it was hard to get staff to work weekends.

Having said all that though (and I have complained about it, for all the good it may do) I don't see how you can limit entry to the sessions based on wealth or class. The only way to do that would be to supply cards or vouchers generated by tax credits/income support entitlements and would overnight turn SS into the local skank-centre in the eyes of many people. It will effectively stigmatise SS out of existence, which is perhaps what Dave would like

'I remember when I had DS 20 years ago as a teenager (well before surestart) and I didn't feel I could go to groups because I thought I'd be judged. Maybe if someone had gone with me maybe I'd have felt more confident'

Oh FGS Mindthegap. Don't flatter yuorself-the vast majority of people couldn't care less what other peopel are doing. They're too busy thinkning about their favourite topic-themselves.

You were obviously grown up enough to have a baby. Is it therefore beyond the realms of possibility that you could have gone to a group without an escort.

Women do themselves no favours at all, do they, presenting themselves as gibbering wrecks after having gone through a normal biological process. There'll be on tap 'counselling' in every pregnancy soon.

Bloody hell that's a bit harsh moondog. It is nerve wracking going to groups (I find it so anyway) - unless you're an outgoing social type. I force myself to go as have to get out of the house, but I've been to groups where everyone knows each other and I've been sat on the sides playing with DS as far too scared to join in. That coupled with being a young mum must have been tough for mindthegap.

And people do judge! It's a load of rubbish saying that people are too busy thinking about themselves. Claptrap.

People do judge but it's up to use whether we care about it or not. And of course the only reason people judge is fear of their own inadequacy. People secure in their own skin don't judge at all.

And it's up to us as mums in groups not to form those wretched cliques that just about every toddler group, baby group or music thing that I've ever been to seems to have, and to welcome anyone new.

Quite right spirit. I really hate the clique thing! I've been to classes thinking I'll meet new mums but turns out they know each other from NCT or something so hard to break in. I remember once where half of them organised a coffee meet up and didn't invite the other 3 or 4 mums - despite us being sat right there

It's hard to not care when you think people are judging especially in the early weeks/months of motherhood.

What spiritmum said.

Plus, this "fear of being judged". Should we really be paying for X and Y service to be available to all in order not to make those delicate flowers that actually genuinely need said services feel awkward?

What next? Pay everyone JSA or HB?

I think paying for services to be available to all is about social cohesion not looking after wallflowers.
You can be poor and confident, rich and shy no?

moondog, I think you are a bit harsh. I can see where you are coming from though. Sometimes the term postnatal depression is applied too loosely.

However one in ten women do suffer from significant mental illness. Postnatal depression if not properly treated can ruin a family. Untreated postnatal depression can led to hospitalisation. Mental illness can hit women in all social groups.

However a woman with industrial strength postnatal depression needs a CPN and pschyarist. Not some flimy music group or baby massage class. She won't be able to access surestart.

The problem with surestart is that it has forgotten its aims. Who is it there for. What is it hoping to achieve? How clinically effective is it? Or does it make the gap between rich and poor wider.

I would think that one argument for keeping them open, if they're used that way, is that they could be a very cost effective option for delivering many services.

The best one I've been to is one of the nearest to me, and is based at a primary school. It has clearly effectively reached many of the harder to reach families in the area - speakers of various languages, women with children who have some sort of special needs etc. I think one reason why it's worked better is that many of the mums have older children at the school. There are English classes and formal job seeking sessions offered, although I haven't used those. The cornerstone though is 3 stay and play sessions a week with lots of toys and some activities on offer.

As for PND, how much in financial and other terms does it cost to treat a woman with PND with drugs, to support her children, to deal with the effects of untreated PND on a whole family later? I probably didn't have "industrial strength" PND, but I certainly had problems which going to various groups funded by Surestart helped me with, and which could have cost the NHS/Social Services far more to deal with (apart from the reduction in the negative effects on me and my sons).

Health visitors used to come to the baby groups for a chat with all the women, a bit more with those who really needed advice and had questions to ask, then at one point that got cut but it seems to have been reinstated.

I think its a great idea having health visitors coming to groups for a chat with all the women at a surestart centre. It would be a cost efficent way of assessing the mental health of a lot people without being intrusive.One health visitor can support 10 women in the time it would take her to make one visit.

Our town has a breastfeeding support group, a group for children with special needs, and a young parent's group. These groups have a health visitor going along. I would like to see more of these groups.

There are parenting groups, but they are run by a family support worker who has just a nursery nurse qualification. More often than not problems with the children are caused by problems with the parents. I think a family support worker would be completely at sea if face with a mother with major mental illness. Sometimes the wrong "help" is worse than no help.

However most of the time the surestart money is wasted. I think that parents should pay the full cost for baby massage, music or messy play. I also think far too much money is spent on admin staff to organise these activites.