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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be really cross that David Cameron wants to limit useage of Sure Start Centre to families on low incomes.

366 replies

Housewife2010 · 11/08/2010 12:54

I have used them for the last 3 years & the majority of the mothers there are middle class. If they didn't go, the places I go to would be almost enmpty.
I use them a lot and my children have got a lot out of the classes/events there. We may not be poor, but our household income has dropped a lot since I gave up work to bring up our children. It is very helpful to be able to take them to some free classes and meet other local families.

OP posts:
CoupleofKooks · 12/08/2010 08:41

"Someone said that local mother and baby groups were shutting down because of the CC. Er, not where I live"

well, i'm glad to hear that, but it IS the case in my area
i know of 2 local businesses that have shut down and 2 others whose baby sessions are currently empty - this has happened since the ccs opened

CoupleofKooks · 12/08/2010 08:43

someone asked what the point of baby massage was - it helps with bonding in cases where parents are struggling with their babies
it calms babies and makes them 'easier' to look after, in essence!
it is easy to portray it as a wanky middle class activity but it can be extremely beneficial for families who are having difficulties

babybarrister · 12/08/2010 08:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

greenbananas · 12/08/2010 09:22

I know the cuts need to fall somewhere, but it's best for communities as a whole if neighbours all get to know each other, without being artificially pigeonholed by income bracket.

I live in a very 'deprived' area and I probably do fit the financial criteria but I don't use my local centre any more because I found the staff annoyingly preachy and patronising. (Just because I am poor does not mean I am stupid! - e.g. I know I should play with my DS and feed him properly) Clearly most centres are great and not like that at all, but if all the clientele are on benefits then staff are perhaps more likely to see their role as 'educating' more than 'supporting' and it can be very alienating to be preached at and seen as a 'case'.

It might lead to there being a stigma in attending... people won't want to walk in the door if centres become too specifically targeted at 'bad parents on benefits'. Some of the most sorted parents I know are stuck in the benefit trap and like me they don't use our local centre because they find it too patronising.

salvadory · 12/08/2010 09:35

I haven't read all of the thread but this issue has been a topic of conversation in my house since I had my first child in January. I live in an affluent part of Manchester and accessed the local surestart baby massage class. It was full of women like me, in their 30's, professional, expensive buggies, nice cars. Every week we were given fresh fruit and juice after the free massage class. The class was held in a local Methodist church and what I did find interesting was that the local baby signing class ( non surestart and privately run) also took place at the church although it was held in the scout hut (much less comfortable surrounds) as the church did not allow for profit activities in it's main building. Given a choice between freebaby masage in a warm room versus £4 baby signing in a cold hut you can imagine what happenedto the baby signing course.
All of the women at baby massage could have easily paid for the sessions and none of us needed (or really took advantageof) the free fruit. It always seemed to me to be a massive wasteof local budget (I'm sure there are many others) which with some clever thinking and careful planning could have been much better spent 2 miles up the road in an area of highsocial/economic deprivation.
I had a conversation about the upcoming election with one of the group leaders in may, she was a conservative voter and when I askedher whether she was worried about the inevitable cuts to the service should the Tories get in, she was but admitted that in Manchester even in the really deprived areas all of the women accessing the services were "like you". Itdid make me think that the original objective of sure start must be failing.

BarmyArmy · 12/08/2010 09:57

salvadory - quite.

GetOrfMoiLand · 12/08/2010 10:26

moondog Wed 11-Aug-10 18:42:46
Can I just say Barmy that your posts shine out with a logic and intelligence that at times is sadly amiss on this site?

I really enjoy them.

LOL at this - yesterday i berated Barmy on another thread for talking shite!

Agree with a lot you have said on this thread, however, Barmy

Grin
smallwhitecat · 12/08/2010 10:27

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Message withdrawn

spiritmum · 12/08/2010 11:03

This whole issue raises questions about what the welfare state is for, doesn't it? Its inception was to provide a safety net for those who couldn't provide for themselves, whether for a short time for for the whole of their lives.

Not it seems that the welfare state is really regarded as providing for our whole well-being. As much as I loved my baby massage classes I could have paid for them, and I could have survived without them, too.

The problem is that we've got so used to the State providing lots of goodies (Bookstart is another thing that is lovely but as a family we didn't need) - we are going to take some weaning off our sense on entitlement and realise that the money needs to be spent on those who really need help and support, regardless of their income.

SanctiMoanyArse · 12/08/2010 11:29

Quite SWC.

A lot of the problem as I see it on here seems to be where the centres have moved from when I last worked in one 7 uearrs ago.

I asn't employed by them.

Basically our area was a market town in a pretty raraula rea which ahd developed a big industrial nature that ahd then imploded all at once, with a lot of simultaneous redundancies. The twon had grown as mainly large council estates based around the biggest employers, and when the industry went the estates plummeted as you would expect. There was also one notorious estate that had riots in the righties, Dad was a child in one of the first famillies housed on that estate and remembers it being specifically (and stupidly) established especially for the poorest and most troubleseom familles in teh area- a ghettoisation of the problems (Dad was 15th child in a family where Nan was disabled and Grandad alcoholic).

Private estates existed then and are now really widespread, but there was a huge issue with the attitude towards the town and the simple fact that low house prices attratced people who had little disposable income and therefore it was a fairly poor place to live.

So a Surestart need was identified. It coverd two specific wards, the ghtto one and another where it was privatyely renting poor as a majority household set up. One of the other estates already had an action plan with a significant cash injection, the last was a grave error to be missed IMO- now classed as severely deprived. Anyway.

The manager was previously a homestart manager and good at working with diferent agencies; my job was surestart homestart coordinator (got it? o nor did anyone else Wink) which meant that SS funded a lot of my role (not all) but I was pure HS emplyee within the SS geographical area. The whole HS scheme, including teh two otehr geographical workers, were absed in a room within SS centre and we ran family groups there as well as at other locations, and I had input on the scheme etc as well as (in the long term unmeetable, hence post no longer existing but that happened after I left) targets wrt to volunteer recruitment and families supported.

So all of our SS famillies came from the identified area but there were small pockets of this area that were affluent, and they ame under our remit too. And relaity was that a fair proportion of my work was inj those house, dealing with famillies expecting multiple birts, agoraphobia and disability.

But the vast majority came from teh estates it's true becuase that was all we covered. There wasn't a stigma though- every pregnant woman got a visit and invite so itb was just seen as an open door. And it was a nice pale; had been owned by a well know kid's charity before us so secure gardens,.

The biggest strength though was the outside agencies that were based there- psycholgist service, SLT specialist, volunteer BF supporters, a special HHV dedicated to a value added service: the breastfeeding, PND, disability help that the regular HVs in a demandinga rea couldn;'t handle. Itb was a hub basically. No baby massage or arts stuff ( there was a gardeing tutorial befoire the whole allotments thing took off but given almost everyone had a useable garden that made sense IMO).

And that's how it shoud be IIMO, community based but not income related. Communities identified on a combination of financial / social need and lack of community service availability. I;d take referaals from groups in peripheral communities too- such as people like SWC and now myself also, although abck then I had no idea how it felt to have a diagnosed disabled child (I had a disabled child but thought I was a terrible apent and it was all my fault).

If people who teach baby massage wish to rent a room and teach it to the community at a reeduced rate then good, that should be encouraged but not a primary focus. It should be about pulling disadvanatged communities ( and most communities have a mix of need and income) togetehr. The idea was to help develop the community to become self supporting: certainly we got a lot of local people trained up in different skills working for us which was a huge positive but reality is that the only people usually who have the time to run community access groups these days are those who have no work, and they have a strong tendency to be thopse who are battling the big issues- at least that was true back home. here there is a strong SAHM culture but tehre wasn't really so much there, probably because of a lot more access to part time jobs in food processing plants etc.

Readinmg what isd happening with people's lcoal centres makes me think things have gone away from the idea that started it all whcih is a shame but I would still argue that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is as bad as funding anything and everything. You can avoid ghettoisation by focussing on community rather than individual need and getting people mixing in ways wher theyc an offer shared support regardless of household income or why theya re there, and still focus on deprivation and need as opposed to random distribution of state cash.

And yes open them up to people outside the immediate geogrpahy if referred. there's a surestart 4 miles away from me, largely used by people wanting a coffee and art class whilst I sit at home all day often bored and certainly lonely with the SN boys unable to get anything (and if it were SN related i'd happily pay from the DLA, that's what it's there fore) because my postcode is a digit out. That's ridiculous. Despite having two autistic (probably genetically caused) kids I don't even have regular access to a HV (never even met ehr actually) becuase of that postcode. there's no sense in that at all. target services by area nad get people proactively inviting teh neediest from otehr areas in. Would make real use of what was once an extraordinarily good idea.

SanctiMoanyArse · 12/08/2010 11:30

(sorry about the length Blush)

dinosaur · 12/08/2010 11:41

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

SanctiMoanyArse · 12/08/2010 11:43

Heelo Dino! Started a thead on wnaky baskets the other day looking for oldies, great to see you)

dinosaur · 12/08/2010 11:44

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

BarmyArmy · 12/08/2010 11:49

GetOrfMoiLand - fret not, I'm sure we'll be disagreeing once more soon enough! Grin

neolara · 12/08/2010 11:52

Where I live, two local centres (one a local nursery and one a charity) have recently become Sure Start centres. I have used both of these centres extensively for the past 6 years - they have only been SS for about two years. I'd be bloody pissed off if I could no longer go to them. They provide the vast majority of services to the under 5s around here and they have done for years and years. The only difference that SS has made as far as I am aware is that the groups are now free instead of costing between £1 - £2 pounds to attend.

TruthSweet · 12/08/2010 12:27

I use the local Childrens' Centre at least twice a week (I volunteer as a BFing peer supporter one morning a week and take my 3DCs with me) and we 'stay and play' or do 'messy play' as well. I also take the DCs to other childrens' centres in the other neighbourhoods in my town (almost all of the neighbourhoods have their own childrens' centres for HV appointments or to use the different facilities.

In the past month we went to the Sensory room in another neighbourhood's CC. We paid more than a local family to go as that area is very deprived (one of the most deprived in the county) which I whole heartedly approve of. I can afford (barely) £4 for a hour for 3 dcs rather than £1 for local families but I can afford it - I don't need to make a choice between the electricity meter or fun for the children.

I had severe PND & PND-OCD with DCs1&2 and have only had low level PND & PND-OCD with DC3 as I have had a lot of support from the CCs, my CPN, HVs, my BFing group and family this time around.

I'm not middle class by background (mum was on social security after my parents split up but as soon as she could get enough work she went off SS and we were even poorer [no free school dinners, subsidised school uniform/trips and mum had a lower wage than SS]). I am only educated to 6th form level but with really bad grades. I am also technically disabled due to epilepsy (not currently seizure free).

My DH isn't middle class by background either (working class family and his dad disabled and unable to work from quite an early age so his mum was only wage earner [worked nights]) but now we would be classed as MC as DH has a degree and a good job(above average wage but we live in SE and on one wage).

We struggle though and just don't have enough cash to pay for a lot of things (no holidays, one older car, 2nd clothes for children and me [DH hasn't had any new clothes in years!], DC2&3 wear hand me downs [DC3s clothes are 4th hand now], I lurk in the supermarket at reducing food time to get our shopping.

All this rambling is to say if we as a family weren't allowed to access Children's Centres
a) my children might just be motherless (not being melodramatic but DH had me on suicide watch for most of DD2's first year), b)they would have a lot more limited experience of play and social interaction, c)I wouldn't be volunteering there as I would have had issues about going and meeting new people and possibly letting them look after my DCs whilst I help a new mum.

moondog · 12/08/2010 14:00

.'someone asked what the point of baby massage was - it helps with bonding in cases where parents are struggling with their babies
it calms babies and makes them 'easier' to look after, in essence!
it is easy to portray it as a wanky middle class activity but it can be extremely beneficial for families who are having difficulties'

Opinion or fact Couple?

moondog · 12/08/2010 14:04

Getorf, you areseeing the light.

I am amazed at the assumption that it is the State's responsibility, nay, duty to rush in and sort you out if, God forbid, you can't quite stretch to Gymboree/Waterbabies, need to get out of the house a bit more, feel a bit down/miserable/tired/claustrophobic.

It bloody well isn't.
Deal with it.

arses · 12/08/2010 14:46

Moondog, there's a critical review of the evidence re: baby massage here: www.redorbit.com/news/health/145995/the_benefits_of_infant_massage_a_critical_review/

I paid full whack for my baby massage at my CC though - not saying it should be a free for all, just that it does have some researched benefits.

I'm interested in the way you describe the "the assumption that it is the State's responsibility, nay, duty to rush in and sort you out if, God forbid, you can't quite stretch to Gymboree/Waterbabies, need to get out of the house a bit more, feel a bit down/miserable/tired/claustrophobic".

This is women's mental health that you're talking about: a lot of the people above who say that they have benefited from SS services are women who have clinical levels of need. Most of them have said they are willing to pay for the service if they can afford it, which seems responsible and sensible to me.

Still, I'm not sure why the State is seen as being less accountable for mental health, say, than cancer care? As someone Irish who would have to pay for healthcare (?60 a pop for a trip to the doctor for a repeat prescription), I'm amazed that people in the UK assume that gold-standard evidence based treatment should be available for free, too - at the outrage at 'diluted' services, given the budgets. I'm not sure, though, why agreeing that many should pay for an established service that they feel benefits for them is an assumption of State responsibility? There have been very few people on this thread who have argued that the status quo should be maintained..

SanctiMoanyArse · 12/08/2010 15:02

MS- on the model I worked at, who should emply teh SW's, SLTs, Psychs etc that worked at mine?

Or should we make do as a society without them?

I am looking at retraining as a SW in 2 eyars (after the MA, and if we can hire a Nanny who cna cope) but i wonder if there will be any jobs left.

moondog · 12/08/2010 15:03

Thank you Arses.
I've had a look over that and it suggests that baby massage is beneficial in allaying post natal depression which is great, really great news.

However a lot of things are beneficial but that doesn't follow that those things should be provided by the state. I watched a Panorama programme (shallow, ill researched adn sensationalist admittedly) the other day in which one of the 'initiatives' undertaken to 'promote healthy eating' was to have an overweight nurse wheel a cart laden with teddies made out of melons and boats and out of pineapples around the hospital.

I ask you.

moondog · 12/08/2010 15:10

Arses, i sort of agree and disagree. Yes, the State should be concerned with people's mental helath (certainly more so than warfare!) but the evidence I have seen does not suggest that these vague touchy feely 'interventions' have any real benefit. If they don't, we can't justify spending money on them.
Many people's 'mental health' issues would be resolved by eating less, walking more, watching less tv and geting involved in some activites, many of which are free (like kicking a football around a park or gonig on a picnic). I am not happy the current vogue for pathologising conditions which are in fact an integral part of this thing called 'living'.

'This is women's mental health that you're talking about: a lot of the people above who say that they have benefited from SS services are women who have clinical levels of need.......still, I'm not sure why the State is seen as being less accountable for mental health, say, than cancer care?'

I'm completely with you on what you say below. I don't expect anything but the most cursory service in terms of health, for example.

I'm amazed that people in the UK assume that gold-standard evidence based treatment should be available for free, too - at the outrage at 'diluted' services, given the budgets.

SanctiMoanyArse · 12/08/2010 15:13

See, that's the side of spending I loathe: I have an ASD bullemic ten eyar old and it's part of school rules that he sits through endless lessons on ehalthy eating in a school where ther eare two nitceable fat kids, both of whose parents (I am large too but the toehr 3 of mine are very ehalthy indeed) eat chips for breakfast in the yard: no lesson on plate sizes will affect that, yet it's taken years of worry to get to see an expert psych.

But my experience of well managed SS is that it actually reaches where the issues really are and at its best can be an easilya ccessible one stop shop for the people who can actually change peoples lives for the better.

That is where the state should be IMO.

Less fruit bears (WTF?) more qualified expertise.

SanctiMoanyArse · 12/08/2010 15:19

WRT to mums who can get out there and walk, or whatever

it's really nota actually so easy when you are depressed or low, I think. Isn;t that a key part of low grade depression?

But ultimately that misses the npoint that we we ren't really tehre for the Mums, nice though it was to help them.

We were there becuase the best way to help the kids who can't make their mums switch off the TV etc was to get to teh mums and help them.

Different thing.