to think benefits are pretty LOW actually. How much do you get?

[ItsGraceActually]

I'm on ESA (used to be 'sick benefit'). I get £90 a week, plus my rent (£400/month) and council tax (£100/month).

With my £90 a week, I pay for heating - it's an all-electric house on a pre-pay meter; water rates; phone, internet, mobile, etc; TV licence; everything else.

I can't afford to run a car or, indeed, use public transport. I smoke, which I pay for with 'permitted work' (about £20/week) from home. I NEVER go out, except for one coffee a fortnight. I don't know how I'm going to afford heating in the winter.

I am extremely grateful for the welfare system, don't get me wrong! I feel fine about claiming: I paid in for 30 years, in the belief that anyone who needs it can get it.
Just now and again, there's one thread too many in here about people on a "welfare lifestyle" , living it up on benefits. Chance'd be a fine thing ...

The world of child-related benefits is foreign to me, so I've invented a family & checked their Tax Credits entitlement.

My imaginary family has 2 parents, each working a 35-hour week for £10,000 pa before deductions. They have 3 children; 2 at school and one at a childminder for £80 a week.
Their Tax Credit entitlement is £6,554.89 a year.

What you said about a 16-hour week doesn't seem all that relevant, YM, but I'm willing to be corrected. I would say, though, that if you and YummyDaddy are busting your guts for a combined income of less than £26k, your hard work & degree could be put to better use ... ?

ItsGrace in fairness she could well be workinga longside studying for professional quals which would eman a lot of ahrd work for a very low income

Or trying to keep a struggling business afloat

Or just woring split shifts at Tesco back to back with dh wondering how the hell she got there after 3 years hard slog.

Lots of ways to not be able to maximise energy expediture in a recession.

Cant argue with that post SMA (17:01:18).

I imagine that is why the ConDems continue to assure people that they will do their best to avoid hitting genuine claimants.

How they will actually do this? No idea.

I consider myself slapped, Sancti. I let myself be influenced by her comments about factory workers without degrees (who "should", therefore, be getting less than her.)

I am curious about the 16 hours thing. How would restricting their hours to 16 give them a better income than a 35-hour week?

It doesn't itsgracec; indeed tehre is a binus payable under TCs when you hit 30 hours (there is a strong arghument for another stepped one at 35 IMO but anyway)

But there may well be people keeping their hourrs low becasue on 16 hourrs plus TC you can have a living income doing quite little.

OTOH if it helps people back into work, or to stay in work (bearing in mind it is easiest to find work when already employed, so to up your hours eg when kids start school), or single mums or the cick find something they can manage

Or people wto work around retraiing

then overall imo its useful

The whole system is a bloody mess right now, there's less social mobility than at any other time since the war i recently heard, news or radio I think.
Something drastic needs to happen for our children's sakes.

Maybe peple arent so botherd about social mobility?

I mean, what I wasnt for the boys is for them to be secure, self suporting, happy in what they do and to ahve decent relationshiops

In all truth I dont care whether its in a WC job or MC one

Whereas my Nan was incredibly snobby about being a MC social climber, to the extent she effectively lost my Mum.

I dont blame the job centre staff for anything, they seem to know the gooduns from the baddies and the rules change so often not surprised they can't keep up.I have never been unemployed till 2yrs ago when I had to look after hubby and I'l get a job ,it just takes time but I'l get there.I WILL SURVIVE.as the song goes .

Another thing,Y M it's your factory thats employing folk for 16hrs,why no full time workers? Oh forgot you get a cheap deal with sick pay holiday pay etc.

So SMA your saying that if you're bright and come from a deprived background that you should not be able to apsire to being a doctor, prime minister what ever ?
And being secure, self supporting and happy in what they do is turning into a pipe dream.
You often have to chose one out of three even now, goodness knows what the future holds.

you're saying I meant.

Maybe the confusion and argument source is a lack of consensus on what teh benefits system should be doing?

Now this is purely ideological.

But itb seems to me we lump too many things in together.

Ideologically (and of courrse I know we cant actually do it financially!) I see no reason why those who are very sick or disabled shouldnn't receive an averahge wage, becuase they are as deserving as anyone else.

And I think it's right we reward those who work in low paid jobs via TC- I understand people in higherpaid work saking why do we nother- the answer is logevity: TCs stop when your child leaves education. Long term mattrs.

I would also personallya rgue that ebing a carer should qualify you as wrking as for tax credits based on that rather than insome support style benfits, becuase ultimately you are trading labour for income; not necessarily a rise in CA, but TCs yes, and after all we are actually taxed on that CA as if it is earnings.

What about the rest though? What is the role? It seems to me that for the newly redundant there's a huge argument for keeping them at a level that allow sthem to just about maintain debts and home, because otherwise it costs us more.

I'd agree with just enough for the rest were it nor forr the children, and I beleive in protecting children becuase penury does have low lifetime outcomes, but how we manage that I do not know.

'So SMA your saying that if you're bright and come from a deprived background that you should not be able to apsire to being a doctor, prime minister what ever ?
And being secure, self supporting and happy in what they do is turning into a pipe dream.
You often have to chose one out of three even now, goodness knows what the future holds.'

certainly not; am a grad from a deprivation index estate myself!

All I was saying is that class doesn't come into it

Being a GP etc yes- if thats what you want- but because of he career and lifestyle, not because it amkes you fit some definitions of middle class.

Whereas my Nan would have painter her head green if The Lady told her it was MC folk did.

lilyliz We dont necessarily employ only part time people, most of them work full time but there is a special 'Mummy Shift' for those who cant/dont want to work full time. its quite casual down there - when the works in we get them in and when its not we send them home.

The reason people opt to work 16 hrs is that you have to be working a minimum of 16 hrs to claim working tax credit, therefore to maximise their benefits for doing jack sh*t they work the minimum hrs they need to.

People in my town even openly admit they only had a baby so they would get a house and benefits handed out to them cos they basically couldnt be arsed to make something of themselves. And im not saying if you work in a minimum wage job you're nothing, as my OH started out there when he flunked all his GCSE's but he then went and got himself qualified and is now an electrician earning enough to keep us afloat, so anyone can get themselves out of the rut you just need motivation which i dont think this country encourages as they provide everything on a plate for just sitting back and doing nothing!

I take it you never use the services of the minimum wagers then yummy ? never use supermarkets? restaurants? childcare workers? never have your dustbin emptied?your children don't have dinner ladies? I find your posts very insulting to these workers

Yes i used to work in a factory/supermarket myself and already said my OH started out there.

The people i am refering to are those young 18 to 30 bracket who really in all honesty can not be bothered to work and only do the minimum hours to get extra benfits.

My own mother who is now retired was never on a high income but always worked as hard as she could to get what income she could. These people i actually applaud as they have the motivation and desire to go out and work for their money rather than just accept handouts. handouts are good dont get me wrong, i do get a little from tax credits and it helps but i dont chose to just work downstairs in a stress free job and have my income bumped up to what i am earning now with benefits because i want to work as hard as i can and not rely on handouts.

A lot of shops only offer 16 or 20 hour contracts ,you yourself said the factory uses casual workers all on zero hour contracts I would bet ..maybe that needs addressing?

A lot of employers exploit the tax credit system just as much as the employees imo

'
The reason people opt to work 16 hrs is that you have to be working a minimum of 16 hrs to claim working tax credit, therefore to maximise their benefits for doing jack sh*t they work the minimum hrs they need to.

'

some

plenty who do for other reasons, like just working around study or whatever

but the bad ones always gives the good ones a bad name