To think ODD

[Colliecross]

is a bit too convenient for the 'sufferer'?
So he really can't just do as he is told, he has ODD etc?
How do schools deal with this?

I think the OP simply phrased that in a very silly way. There is a lot of misdiagnosis out there, and sometimes a child can be extremely naughty without having ODD, ADD, ASD, etc. I quite agree, it was a very insensitive way of putting it, but I don't think it was meant to question every diagnosis, merely that in some cases, there is a rush to explain the behaviour medically, rather than accept that, in some cases, the child is just very naughty and defiant.

But I do think it was a very bad way of putting it across. I hope I've read the OP right here, I would prefer to think someone is being insensitive than to think they are just plain stupid tbh.

The other thing some people don't understand.

ODD is often diagnosed by a child behaviour and whether it is on par for the age group.
For example a 3yr old tamtruming, kicking, screaming and throwing things is normal for their age (ok maybe not the throwing things) now is a 12yr old is behaving the same way then this is not normal for their age.

So whether the childs developmental level is on par for a child of the same age.

that should say "if a 12 yr old" not is

I just took this from a leaflet I have.

What Causes Oppositional Defiant Disorder?

The exact cause of ODD is not known, but it is believed that a combination of biological, genetic, and environmental factors may contribute to the condition.

Biological: Some studies suggest that defects in or injuries to certain areas of the brain can lead to serious behavioral problems in children. In addition, ODD has been linked to abnormal amounts of special chemicals in the brain called neurotransmitters. Neurotransmitters help nerve cells in the brain communicate with each other. If these chemicals are out of balance or not working properly, messages may not make it through the brain correctly, leading to symptoms of ODD, and other mental illnesses. Further, many children and teens with ODD also have other mental illnesses, such as ADHD, learning disorders, depression, or an anxiety disorder, which may contribute to their behavior problems.

Genetics: Many children and teens with ODD have close family members with mental illnesses, including mood disorders, anxiety disorders, and personality disorders. This suggests that a vulnerability to develop ODD may be inherited.

Environmental: Factors such as a dysfunctional family life, a family history of mental illnesses and/or substance abuse, may contribute to the development of behavior disorders.

HTH

What a terrible worded post op.

if you need help in being educated in this sort of thing, why not ask nicely, you might have had nicer responses.

are trying to say that disorders of any sort then are an excuse to bad behaviour.

are you a medical expert??

Pagwatch

I am not an expert, but I do work with children who display challenging behaviours in an inner city Primary.

Ime, the behaviours described as present in the home tend to be far worse than those apparent in school. Routine and structure have a wholly positive effect on ADHD sufferers, and lack of structure and consistent boundaries at home contribute significantly to the condition imo.

I have never seen an autistic pupil display symptoms in only one setting in this way, although there are obviously more and less successful ways of managing the condition.

Ragged
Although one sibling in the situation you descibe may have been less effected by their environment, it is still clear to me that your nieces chaotic homelife has contributed more to her situation than a pre existing condition.

The very high rate of behavioural issues at my school, where many children suffer from neglect and inadequate parenting, convinces me that these issues are at the heart of most of the behavioural issues I deal with.

MoreC,

I think I am going to send you DS1

Tles

I think it is difficult to prove the genetic link in ODD cases, as a child growing up in an environment with family mental health issues will be effected by their environment, and it is difficult to separate this from any hereditary factors

I genuinely believe that environmental factors are the most significant cause

MoreC, I simply copied from what I had read.
Although I will say DS1's paternal family is full of children who have behavioural/mental/physical disorders..

And in this case there are no mental health issues surrounding DS1's upbringing - unless you count his fathers.

Personally i think there could/are many factors to what causes it.

Morecrack

Thanks.
can I just give you another angle for when you are dealing with issues re behaviours at home vs behaviours at school

Ds2 is at the severe end of the spectrum and is at a special school for ASD.
As a consequence his enviroment is incredibly structured and supportive and he copes with certain things terribly well there .
At home we are very structured, supportive and consistent too. I have three children and my other two children are the sort who draw comments from people about how nice and well behaved they are ( souynds a bit boasty but I am trying to give a context here)
Ds2 has a strong routine and clear boundaries with consistent appropriate sanctions.
Yet Ds2 is very different at home. For example when he gets home form school he will often display extreme sadness or some frustration.

The thing is he wants to be 'good'.
He is 13 but in many ways he is like a three or four year old - wants to receive praise etc at school and worries about doing things that are naughty.
But when he comes home our demands are slightly different because we love him and desire his happiness. So at home he has the permission to vent a little, relax a little. For him that means some displaying of behaviours that wouldn't be ok at school but which I am more lenient about because frankly the boy has worked like hell all day and it costs him a little.
It is his version of coming home, taking his shoes off, pouring a glass of wine and kicking the cat .

I can't see a slight (and I stress slight) relaxation of his boundaries at home as being a bad thing. But if anyone who didn't know this was what I was doing were to look at him at school, then look at him at home, it would be easy to just shrug and think school is giving structure and boundaries and I am not.
Does that make any sense

"The very high rate of behavioural issues at my school, where many children suffer from neglect and inadequate parenting, convinces me that these issues are at the heart of most of the behavioural issues I deal with."

I completely agree with you on this, MoreCrack. But this does not negate the existence of ODD. In the same way as attachment disorder undoubtedly exists, albeit created by circumstance IYSWIM.

'Ime, the behaviours described as present in the home tend to be far worse than those apparent in school. Routine and structure have a wholly positive effect on ADHD sufferers, and lack of structure and consistent boundaries at home contribute significantly to the condition imo....The very high rate of behavioural issues at my school, where many children suffer from neglect and inadequate parenting, convinces me that these issues are at the heart of most of the behavioural issues I deal with.'

Morecrack - school is extremely draining for a child with SEN/SN. They then return home mentally exhausted where they can safley release their frustration. It is very, very common and not neccessarily indicative of lack of boundaries.

Hi cornsilk- totally forgot to reply to you sorry!

Hope all is well.

agree with corns1lk but a bit jealous that she said elegantly in a few lines that which took me a couple of hugee bloody paragraphs

Maryz - I agree too re the notion that sometimes the condition creates the disruption to the enviroment, rather than the disrupted enviroment causeing the condition

that's okay tethersend - we have made good progress with the relevant parties and have a plan of action so fingers crossed

a Diagnosis doesn't change the world though, or make it easier to live in.

My DD1 has behavioural problems. She is 4.7. She doesn't have any understanding of social 'norms' or boundaries.

She doesn't have any inhibitions about displaying her less desirable characteristics whereever she is. She needed 1:1 at all times at preschool, and needs constant supervision at home.

Our home has to be modified, and the modifications regularly updated to keep her safe. Stair gates everywhere, including the front door to stop her escaping.

She starts school in Spetember, and will go to a SN school, because a MS one couldn't keep her safe, and even if they kept her in the site, they wouldn't be able to keep her in the classroom, because of the open plan nature of Primary schools.

She does have a diagnosis. But the diagnosis doesn't make her behaviour easier to deal with, her lack of danger awareness easier to overcome. Our lives don't get easier, they get harder.

To see her clamp her hand over her mouth desperately to stop herself saying something when she has been asked to be quiet, for example, is quite heartbreaking. She knows that she can't control herself mentally, so she tries to physically stop herself.

She has a brain malformation, it turns out. Her CT scan was fine, so we were relieved, but then she had an MRI and it showed on that.

The dx is really no consolation a lot of the time. We asked the paediatrician if there were any more opinions about her brain, and he said "Well, to be honest, we picked up the images, looked at them, mumbled that we didn't really know much about it, and put them back in the pile."

Her brain malformation is widespread, it affects everything, but the best thing of all is that to the outside world, DD1 looks like a child who needs a bit of discipline and structure

Her diagnosis made it easier to secure a suitable school placement though Lougle; please don't think that a diagnosis is for nothing, as it is far, far more difficult to access any kind of educational support without one.

As she moves through the school system, you may find yourself relieved that she has one.

Good luck to her and you for starting school

Hope all goes well, cornsilk

tethersend, you are so right, and to be honest, the thing it does most of all is reassure us that we aren't just bad parents.

A diagnosis of a recognised condition can be useful (to parents/carers) as research can then provide strategies targeted to the common symptoms of the condition.

If a parent has no idea that their child is suffering from a condition which can be helped, but is left to think it is down to their 'bad parenting', they will be simply left floundering, stressed, guilty and unable to help their child (as well as having to deal with judgements from strangers ).