OK, so how would YOU change the welfare system?

[MathsMadMummy]

just wondering following on from various threads lately. sorry it's probably been done before.

I guess it's more a question of how you'd change the culture really, where people feel it's their entitlement to never work etc.

I have no idea what the answer is, please tell me your bright ideas

Of course there are deserving IB / DLA claimant's sancti - that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to deal with those that really aren't. My MIL is one of them; she needs a good kick up the backside and to be told that no, she isn't actually ill and she could work.

Make sure that people who work are ALWAYS better off than people on benefits who don't work. Raise the status and respect for people who do low status jobs, McDonald's etc. People who do these jobs should not be looked down upon or seen to be beneath people on benefits.

usualsuspect - I don't think I am wrong, funnily enough.

Colditz - I didn't say we shouldn't listen to poor people. I said that the views of net benefit recipients are, not unreasonably, of less relevance than those of the people who are being asked (no, not even that, being TOLD) to pay for them.

Regarding the problem of what to do with the children of benefits claimants - and the possibly suffering that will ensue if/when such beenfits are withdrawn - I agree that some compassion needs to be shown.

Nevertheless, future benefits (i.e. not those being paid out at present) should be limited in such a way as to link children to benefits.

Clearly, the Governments (over the years) have intended for benefits to meet the costs of having children - however, the law of unintended consequences has simply meant that the very people who, if we were 100% honest and brutal about it, we wouldn't want to reproduce...have a perverse incentive to do so. And so on.

We can't go on like this.

It doesn;t happen very often at all that people buy expensive stuff on benefits

When they do its becuase thats all tehyc an get tick on, or like us the kids may be kitted out in John Lewis but it's 2nd hand John Lewis

Start by looking at the barriers stopping people working. We get aprt benefits as I am a carer and DH works part time whilst retraining post redundancy. If there was SN childcare available i'd get work ASAP (if I could find it, been applying and never even get a letter and am ahrdly underqualified eitehr- quite the reverse in fact, post grad.
If people could look long term they'd see DHe is working and retraining to get us off benefits and back where we were.

Maybe there should be some ability for assessing people to look at the whole? To look at a couple with two fit adults and 2 NT kids who ahve enver worrked a day and see them differently from cases like us where we both paid NI for as long as we possibly could (and DH still does, just low rate of atm)

It's irresponsibility over trying your damned hardest and coming up against brrick walls all the way

How about some sort of long-lasting contraception that is implanted at birth and is only removed when you can show you are a fit and proper person to have a child?

Mmm Noodles, you've given me an idea of what to have for dinner tonight as I am currently working poor. What should I have with them?

' I said that the views of net benefit recipients are, not unreasonably, of less relevance than those of the people who are being asked (no, not even that, being TOLD) to pay for them.'

My views are no different now than they were a year ago when we were not claiming net benefits.

But if you think we're doing soemthing wrong, based on my post below, tell me how to get out of this now rather than in 2 years time? Please (don't bother including childcare- no SN childcare to be had forr ds1 who is aggressive and attacks other kids sooner or later in any setting)and include the fact that our city is 3rd worst affected in our country for recession related job losses so there isn;t a long list of available jobs any more

Toast. Made with happy shopper bread. Washed down with strong white cider in a 2 litre bottle.

Okaaaaaay Lola

and who gets to make that decision?

You, by any chance?

Listen, all, every one of my children was conceived when we were in full employment. I am so much a fit and proper parent I managed a parenting charity for a few years.

Why does benefit claimant equate to lazy arsed never worked or wanted to for so many people? It's just not true.

Lola your stereotypes stink.

Unpleasant.

Erm, it doesn't actually. As I have already said, I would not include benefit claimants who have worked and fallen on hard times. That is the basis of an insurance based system, with everything else being a subsistence level safety net.

Oh and the contracpetion thing was sarcastic. Though the more I think about it, the more it appeals....

Barmy - I totally agree with you

I would be interested to know the stats about family size too, because I suspect that when we're talking larger families, ie 4 plus children, we're looking at families who are either very well off, or on benefits. ie: they can either afford multiple childcare easily (or indeed can afford to have one parent not working long term) OR they don't have to worry about childcare or other costs because they get benefits. Meanwhile, the masses in the middle, who struggle to pay their own way, are forced by simple economics to limt their family

SanctiMoanyArse - your life = your problem...you sort it out.

Just because some people lack the initiative, energy and ambition to make something of their lives does not mean those of us that do should have to foot the increasingly generous bill forever.

I have 2 disabled kids and we paid NI between us for 40 years so we did have this if it all went bad

Why is my NI worth less than someone elses contribution?

And the thing about stereotypes is that they're uncomfortable because they're true. Why do people laugh at things like Lauren on Catherine Tait, or Vicky Pollard on Little Britain - it's not because they are a figment of the writer's imagination, is it?

Companies should be made by law to share, say 25%, of profits with employees, including temporary and agency workers.

Not sure how I have managed to tie this in to getting people off benefits though.

What's happy shopper bread? Don't drink Cider and need to stay sober in the week as I get up every morning to work. Might have some ham and cheese sauce with them.

And as for initiative energy and ambition-

When I had my last baby I was taking finals so I could train as a teacher, I did well too: got A grades (but that was when ds3 was diagnosed with autism). how is that alcking in energy or drive? When DH lost his job he set up a business he is building up; where's the lack of ambition?

I hate being lumped in with
people who never paid, don't care and don't try.

Lola they are not true of me at all.

Which is why I get really upset and angry at them.

barmyarmy, most people do not have a choice when it comes to disability and illness. Surely you are not that stupid?

I don't think anyone did lump you in sancti - you did that yourself. Actually, I would have said you were in the group of people who deserve to be able to claim, having paid in previously. That isn't the same as people who live a life on their backside.

What LolaKnickers said.

Nor did I say stereotypes were true of you, sancti. I said they were true in general. I have no idea if they are true of you.

LolaKnickers Or watch 'Shameless'