OK, so how would YOU change the welfare system?

[MathsMadMummy]

just wondering following on from various threads lately. sorry it's probably been done before.

I guess it's more a question of how you'd change the culture really, where people feel it's their entitlement to never work etc.

I have no idea what the answer is, please tell me your bright ideas

I think the idea behind tax credits and the like is to lift children out of poverty and to give them some opportunity to break the cycle. Also, to break down the benefits trap, whereby low skilled workers were unable to earn enough to keep their families, again in an attempt to break the cycle of generations of families having no one working.

I think the individual credit thing might work better though. No faffing on with adjusting claims for benefits if you take work, whatever the pay or the length of the contract, it gives those most entrenched within the benefits system to earn and keep whatever they earn. It's a much less overwhelming way of getting people back into work.

Unbelievable

I am getting a little weary of people saying that if they didnt get this or that benefit they would 'starve' really, I dont think you would... There are 3rd world countries that really do have people starving - it is insulting to say that you would... All of us are exceptionally lucky to live in this country. Starving means dying of hunger, all of us on this forum have access to broadband, PC's, electric - we are not starving!!

I agree, yet plenty on here whinge about 'going hungry'.

Some are a lot more lucky than others though, and that luck is still massively determined by the circumstances into which a child is born.

And it pisses me off enormously that folk come on here citing people living in the third world as a comparision to the UK. It's rather like dropping a couple of quid into the cup of beggar and declaring you've done your bit, without ever addressing the issues leading to that person being in that situation.

The OP asked the question what would you do about the welfare system. The most recent posts have done little to address the problems, it's more a jump in and slag off those who need help, for whatever reason.

I'm not talking about people starving, our system certainly covers the cost of providing food. Whether all parents are capable of budgeting/shopping/cooking sufficiently to provide a a decent diet for their children is another matter.

What do you propose we do with those people? Take their children off them? Put them in workhouses/orphanages? Or try to educate them perhaps? The latter costs money, but could be viewed as an investment into future generations.

moondog, that link is truly shocking.

Isn't it just!

Masses of amounts of money have been poured into the education system and it is just not working...There are no consequences to a number of actions that 30 years ago would have been seen as much less acceptable. If god forbid I was caught drinking and driving (I am just using this as an example!) my job would go, my family life would be a disaster, I would feel I had let everyone down so the consequences of that happening means that I wouldnt ever ever dream of doing it.

Work full time, work part-time, be a SAHM, marry a millionaire, have 5 children but please take responsibility for what you choose to do with your life

lifeinlimbo what do they need it for? Assuming they are living in the parental home, what outgoings do they have that the taxpayer needs to support? My point is, in households where noone works, young people can consider JSA an entitlement, a right of passage. You leave school and head down the job centre. Changing the culture means they have to stop expecting that to be the norm.

How can you say it isn't working though Rocky? What would things be like if we hadn't invested in education, how can we possibly compare the current situation to a complete unknown?

I'm really not trying to be provocative. I'm aware of the problems in the benefits system, that, in some cases, living off the state seems to be a viable option for some people, but I wonder why that is and what we can do to change it.

I feel the same way when people harp on about prison being too easy, otherwise people wouldn't keep going back. I can't help but think that prison wouldn't be a place I'd like to be, but then my life hasn't been so totally shitty and pointless that the security and routine of a clean, safe place to sleep and 3 square a meals a day would be enough to compensate me for the lack of personal freedom.

And they wont starve - have you seen how quickly a teenage boy goes through a fridge full of food...

It's not new at all and I have 3 20 somethings here who are I am sure better than many a child of a housewife and women have always worked.

There seem to be vast numbers of children with special needs around on MN. I'm amazed. What proportion of UK children have special needs?

Who fills the fridge with food? I grew up with fuck all in the fridge. We didn't starve, my mother and father made what we had go as far as they could, but there was never a fridge full of food to help ourselves to.

I wouldn't have taken so much as a slice of bread without first checking it wasn't already accounted for.

I do think it is seen as viable option because too much is being given out tbh.

If they didnt for example have JSA then they would have to think about other ways of earning money and getting the things they want. I also think that the target of 45% into degree courses is far far too high. Vocational training is and should be seen as equally important. Where we live it is dificult to get reliable plumbers for example. I have promised myself when I retire (a number of years yet!) I will do some sort of plumbing type course, learn how to plumb in a dishwasher, mend a leaking tap etc. I married a man who stuck a stick on hook to the back of the bedroom door and when I put my pyjamas on it it fell off the FIRST time I used it... He has other talents of course but DIY was never amongst them....

Yes I find it a bit odd when the scare mongerers come along saying 'ah but wait 20 years and see the consequences of children being in childcare'! There are hundreds of us mums here with older or adult children so we can see first hand that they have been absolutely fine with two working parents.my older teens see working as totally normal.they already have Saturday jobs and are achieving well at at school and university and aspire to good careers. Oh and they are happy and have good relationships with dh and me. Anyway women have worked as well as raising kids for years .

That was in response to xenia

Moondog - the state subsidising workers so that fat cats can make larger profits.. not sure whos idea that was, but I did notice the tories cut the tax they pay on those profits!

A major problem as I see it is the cost of housing.

This is fueled by the rich who have invested in property, and are driving up prices to unaffordable levels for the average worker. (hence bad mortgages that caused the latest recession)

This also pushes up housing benefit costs -I think youll find this accounts for the majority of these 'headline' rates of benefits.

Guess who gets paid the private rent that most housing benefit pays.

For example: the bankers bonuses effect on house prices in london. Effect of second home owners on rural property prices and coastal areas.

The selling off of social housing stock, pushing people into the private sector.

Young people jobhunting need: transport costs, a phone, suitable work clothing, yes they do also still need to eat, and to contribute to household bills (whether they live in a houseshare or low earning parental home).

Huh? Where did I say that I lived in a council house???? I was responding to a comment waaay upthread about how one poster would manage homelessness.

I think that most of the people I was at university with (Cambridge) had been in some formof childcare or other from a young age. They mostly seemed to be happy and balanced individuals who now for the most part lead very successful lives. I actually think it's good for children to see their mothers working as much as their father. In an ideal world, the parents would able to manage their time so that they divide childcare equally or nearly equally (some friends do just that- one set where mother works mornings, and father, afternoons and they both share childcare 50-50; another couple where they jobshare and share childcare- a particularly good case but made necessary by their circumstances). I appreciate that this is not always possible but IO do think we need to get away from the model where dad goes out to his important job and mum stays at home and sorts laundry. I've done both so I feel I know whereof I speak- I feel that any extended period of unemployment makes people depressed and powerless, to bring us back on topic.

I actually that there should be some meaningful, gentle but encouraging back-to-work schemes where you are talked through any passing difficulties by a trained counsellor and learn how to manage them I recently a 30 yo AS man who has not worked in 2 years because he finds workplace relationships so hard to handle. He wants to work, is a very intelligent man- he just can't work out how to.

"If they didnt for example have JSA then they would have to think about other ways of earning money and getting the things they want"

I'm intrigued by this. Other ways of earning money?

So if they cannot find a job, what else could they do to make money? Difficult as it seems to accept, there are people on JSA who are actually seeking work (see what I did there? Huh? Huh? JSA - seeking)

Maybe I'm being naive but what other ways of making money are there for those who are struggling to find work?

"...being paid to be a 'carer' of a member of your own family.
Isn't that what families are supposed to do anyway..."

My cousin is the paid carer for her adult son who has Downs Syndrome and can't live fully independently. I can't recall the exact amount received, but it's paltry. It would cost the govt. a lot more money to put her son into some kind of sheltered accomodation (but then cousin could go work FT). It works out that paying for a family carer is the most cost-effective solution.

"If they didnt for example have JSA then they would have to think about other ways of earning money and getting the things they want"

Perhaps you mean robbing? drug dealing? umm..

I would prefer my taxes go towards supporting someone seeking a job, rather than pushing them towards these 'other ways'. Thanks anyway

'How can you say it isn't working though Rocky? What would things be like if we hadn't invested in education, how can we possibly compare the current situation to a complete unknown?'

Have you any idea how utterly idiotic that statement is Wubbly???