So when do I actually consider divorce, then?

[Torpor]

Before I start - this is not all about attention seeking because I'm fine, feeling calm and purely after some clear thinking.

Why I am thinking about it
We are not in love anymore. I do not feel love.
I do not particularly like him or share his views.
We are not very similar.
We bicker constantly and have reached a stage where we have very little respect for each other's feelings anymore.
The above ^^^ is surely having a negative impact upon our small childrem. I hate this.
He is not supportive of me or my feelings or ambitions. He does, however, expect full support back.
He is pretty lazy around the house and flies into a rage if I try to suggest he could help.
Ah yes, the rage: he flies into rages all the time. I very obviously irritate the shit out of him, even when I try not to. Particularly when I try not to.
He also irritates the shit out of me.

Why I don't want to get divorced
Oh god. Divorce. How depressing.
My children. Yup, he's toilet as a husband, but he's pretty bloody good with the kids.
Maybe it's just because we've got 2 small children and didn't spend that much time together before we got married and had babies?
The money/house/work situation: we just about get by as a couple. I have no idea how we would get by if we had two separate households.
I really want to be happy and to stay married. I wish our marriage worked. I have no appetite for singledom.

What do y'll think? I've been musing over it for about 3 years and am not any further ahead.

This is an alternative name, btw. I am not a random troll person.

I think once children come in to a relationship it changes completely forever.

The fact that you wish your marriage worked suggests that you still care?

Does DS know how you are feeling? Do you get much time to be a couple as opposed to wage earners and Mum & Dad?

It's so hard. I see part of myself in your situation, not to the full extent, but definitely parts of it.
I wish I too knew the answer.....
I would just like to be 'adored' to be the most important thing in their life (apart from or on equal footing to the children)

A friend going through a divorce once said, she's more upset than anything else about the fact that she has not been loved

Sorry that should read DH not DS. Its been a long day.....

Absolutely zero.

Although when we do, it generally ends up in bitter conflict.

Basically, our two personalites are thus:

Him: conventional, private, strong willed, selfish, outwardly tough and often quite rude, but actually very soft natured (underneath all that offensive bluster).

Me: The opposite, apart from the strong will.

He spends any public time with me rolling eyes and fearing what convention I will next flout (like having a second glass of wine, for instance - I used to be a heavy drinker, you see, but I stopped over 5 years ago. He thinks I am still incapable of regulating my own intake).

I spend all the time rolling my eyes and feeling like I'm enduring a social obligation with a rich relative I need to mollify.

Of course, I'm biased and will paint a picture that flatters me, but the sad truth is that neither of us can be ourselves without upsetting the other. I think he could be much happier with a different kind of woman.

I think you need to concentrate on the rage and respect issues. Everything else can be overcome if that's what you both want, but respect can be nigh on impossible to resurrect once it is lost for good.

What does your H feel about it? Does he know you contemplate divorce? What do you think his reaction would be if you suggested it? If he's a decent bloke and you both want it to work, Relate (or something similar) may be your best choice.

When a relationship hits a low point, it is all too easy to become very irritable and angry with each other. However, I would get you to look up a few websites about abuse and dysfunctional relationships. It may be that you are both decent people but are just fundamentally unhappy. However, the rages ring alarm bells for me and I think it would be a good idea for you to learn more about them. If you decide, for example, that your marriage is deeply dysfunctional and that your DC are witnessing your H treat you with zero respect and borderline abuse, you will actually change your mind about him being 'bloody good' with the kids and you may take a step closer to divorce, so breaking the stalemate you find yourself in. Alternatively, you may recognise a few things you do yourself as being really damaging to your relationship...

First step, start finding out more about good and bad relationships. Second step, ask your H what he thinks and what he wants.

FWIW, it sounds glib and I am certainly not advocating you separate, but money and not wanting to be single are NOT good reasons for continuing in what is a deeply unhappy/dysfunctional/potentially abusive relationship - however hard they may make leaving it.

Good luck.

Thank you, both.

Redvelvet: yes, I do feel pretty sad and sorry for myself. Well, both of us. I think my DH is essentially a very good man (if we are judging purely on ethics, morals and social behaviour) and that someone else would be delighted with him. I'm very glad he is the father of my children.

I don't have a really strong hankering to be subsumed by romance, but I think that loving marriages are wonderful things. I wish I had one.

Have you tried relate ? think that could help you both to decide what you want to do?
divorce is a huge step x I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do x

Torpor I know how you feel, I am in a similar situation to you. DH doesn't fly into a rage at me, but he can be so oversensitive and negative about silly little things. He isn't a bad man, but spending time with him gets me down, we are just such different people.
He is a good dad though and for that alone I think it's worth staying with him. Also leaving would make the money situation very hard.
I don't know what to suggest to you. I think we all have our breaking point where we can't take it anymore. I do often think of leaving him, don't know if I ever will. At the moment there are is more good than bad. I think if it gets unbearable for you, then maybe it's something you just have to go ahead and do(leave I mean), however scary it is. I do sympathise though, just wanted you to know, as it can get really lonely living like this.

Optimists: thank you for your considered reply.

I agree: whilst I am big and ugly enough to shrug off the abuse he throws my way, I am deeply unhappy that it occurs in front of the children. And of course, it's not all one way: whilst I have made a HUGE effort to curb my vicious tongue, I snap back in kind at least once a day.

The elder child is well aware of it. I am very ashamed of and troubled by this. TBH, that is my main motivation for wishing to end the relationship. Could I cope with a lack of love? Yeah: I've got plenty to look back upon and good friends around me. But I don't want my lovely children growing up in this atmosphere.

I have thrown 'divorce' at him a good few times: to me, it seems to be the only logical outcome (he is unwilling to go back to counselling, although I could probably force the issue). But he doesn't want a divorce. He makes a concerted effort for a short time and then ... we slide back into the mire.

Life is too short, you are not happy, he is not happy, this will negatively effect your children, they will not thankyou, what are you waiting for???

Vinegar: your post has really touched me. You're right; it is lonely. Thank you for posting.

sane: I could force it, I think, but DH is rather typically anti-counselling. We did it before and it was beneficial for the issues back then (lots of trauma surrounding first baby's birth). I suppose I do need to get my arse into gear and go back.

Thank you for responding, MNers.

Life has intervened: got to go for tonight. Really appreciate your posts. Back tomorrow.

Torpor, I can't tell you what to do, but maybe my own experience may give you pause for thought.

I'm 34 and in the whole of my life, the only times I look back and struggle to deal with my OWN behaviour is the time I was with my XP. I'm not trying to excuse my own role and I take full responsibility for my actions, but I learned that in a deeply dysfunctional relationship, where normal 'rules' don't apply, even the best people can resort to bad behaviour borne of frustration. For me, the only way I could prevent myself from going down to his level was to leave the relationship. My XP was like yours - things would change for a bit then slip back to normal. when I picked him up on it, I would be reminded of the last time I had behaved badly (completely failing to take into account that for every misdemeanour of my own, he'd committed many many more).

Nearly 4 years on, my DC are a credit to me (possibly despite me ) and XP and I get along really well. He is a far better father to them now we are no longer together than he ever would have been had we remained a couple, and the DC have the benefit of two involved parents who never argue. Good parents do not necessarily have to live together to be good parents.

I think for many people it is the dread of the PROCESS of splitting up that causes inertia, rather than worry of 'how will I cope?'. Most people know that they will cope in the end, simply because they have to. What they can't face is the months/years of bitterness before emotions level off, the misery of dividing joint assets, the complications of separating finances and establishing an independent income, the worry about finding a reliable mechanic to fix the car because 'D'H has always taken care of those things. But ALL these things are transient in the great scheme of things. A few months, or even years, of difficulty is a small price to pay for a much longer life that at best may be brimming with promise, but at worst will at least leave you at peace and free of feeling your heart sink when you hear the key turn in the door.

TBH, none of this will make a difference to you. Using MN is a great way to clarify what you're feeling and I and other posters are more than happy to help in any way I/we can I'm sure. But personal experience (my own and others) tells me that the truth is that you'll either limp along like this for years or something will unexpectedly happen one day that will galvanise you into action, whether that's packing his bags or phoning Relate. I hope it works out for you but your reply "Could I cope with a lack of love: Yeah" makes me feel really for you. You're married, you shouldn't have to cope with it. It's perfectly possible to remain happily married but no longer be in love with each other if you otherwise like and respect each other so that you can have a 'legal friendship' I suppose, but that doesn't sound like it's the case in your relationship.

Oh Torpor, I could nearly written your post word for word. It's so difficult isn't it.

For me there is also the added pressure that I would love another DC (have DS 18 months), and worry if we did split I may be throwing away that opportunity.

Sometimes, especially when we have a relatively good couple of days, it just seems easier to stay than deal with the fallout if we split.

OptomistS - you are spot on about it being the process of splitting up that causes the anxiety rather than the worry of coping. Well it is for me anyway. I also recoginise excatly what you are saying about the struggling with my own behaviour. I often dont like the person I am when with DP.

Not sure I have any advice Topor but if you ever want to 'chat' please drop me a message and I'll send you my email address. I'd love to be able to talk to someone in the same position - I often feel quite isolted as I dont want family and friends to worry about me so always put on a front for their benefit.

Torpor You read my mind! I feel like i wrote all that LOL How did you know what I was thinking about my life

Torpor that is a difficult situation. In my opinion, you already know that it's over. But it's finding the right time. Either something will happen, even something really small, and it will push you into the decision - or you will just wake up one day and be ready.

Honestly, it's hard having the split and the fallout. But not as hard as having to live with someone you can't stand the sight of.

Be strong in whatever you decide.

OptimistS- Wow completely second what she has written. Divorce him! I have only been separated 4/5 months and about to commence divorce. It's been horribly stressful and absolutely fantastic all at the same time.
When he left and I opened the door to peace and quiet and not that nervous tension in my stomach I smiled, and havn't looked back.

I'll always regret that it has not worked out and what we couldn't provide- but we couldn't have provided it together anyway. Stagnant, tearing down each other, no set goals or life of promise to work towards, tetchy and impatient and tired... life is so much better on the other side!

PS We were together since we were teenagers and married 15 years.

I'm so surprised how many people are in the same situation - its strangely reassuring but sad at the same time.

Could I cope with a lack of love? Yeah: I've got plenty to look back upon and good friends around me. But I don't want my lovely children growing up in this atmosphere. That sums up exactly how I feel. I'm not unhappy with my life. I have fantastic family and friends and of course my beloved DS, who makes me smile every day.

One minute I am certain that it is over and that I have the strength to go through it and the next, we might have a few ok days and I think maybe its not so bad. I mean we do have good times sometimes, but these are always centred around DS. But if we are going to make a go of it, I need to find a way to break the the destructive cycle we seem to be stuck in, as I can't bear the thought that DS will grow up thinking this is 'normal'.

I'm so sick of going round and round in circles in my head.

Anyway Torpor, Vinegar, jakiD and anyone else in the same situation - am thinking of you and am always here if you want to offload x

Torpor, i cannot pretend to be in the same situation, but I do know we get one stab at this life, one chance to make it what we want it to be, and one heck of an old age (if we're lucky) to regret not making the most of it when we could.

Growing up, a few of my friends had divorced parents, they were all well adjusted, sheltered from the rows that would have taken place, and as adults they now appreciate that their parents needed to make the break, that life takes turns we don't expect or even want sometimes but must deal with. Nobody has grown into a bitter or sad adult, but instead they look at their parents with respect for having taken a difficult decision, yet maintaining love and contact throughout with their kids.

I wish you luck
x

ifeelthesame ta!

I just wanted to say, don't stay together 'for the children'. Children who grow up in a toxic atmosphere are constantly on pins & anxious listening to Mum & Dad bickering. They can get into bad relationships themselves because they think the way you relate to each other is normal.

Divorce and singledom is not the end of the world and is a new lease of life for many. Everyone's chance to be happy. Him, you & the children. Lots of people find they have a better relationship after they split than being forced to stay together. The money side of things is tough but, again, staying together 'for the money' is not a great reason. The resentment builds eventually.

Good luck with whatever you decide. But I think you've actually made your mind up already.

"Maybe it's just because we've got 2 small children and didn't spend that much time together before we got married and had babies?"

"lots of trauma surroundign the first baby's birth"

Torpor, these sentences are quite telling I think.

Having two small children is stressful and demanding. Having trauma with your first birth is very stressful. I tend to think couples need quite a lot of history and solidity in their relationship to fall back on in order get through those kinds of times. Sounds like you didn't have that before you had the DCs.

You say he is a very good man fundamentally and that you are very glad he's your DC's father - which is actually a really positive thing for you to say. But it sounds like that is overshadowed at the moment by the constant irritation, anger and bickering. It is not surprising that neither of you feel love in that atmosphere.

All this makes me wonder, is it worth waiting till the DCs are a few years older and a bit less tiring - and see how you each feel then? In the meantime, is there any way you could reduce the stress in your lives? For example, forget about trying to socialise together if it ends in conflict. Pick your battles. Could the GPs or a babysitter look after the children occasionally - either so you could spend more time as a couple, or even just so you can spend more time separately on your own? Could one of you move out for a while and just come for evening visits?

I know there is no "quick fix". But it sounds like you have got stuck in a vicious cycle. I am wondering whether there is any way of breaking that cycle, without jumping straight to divorce.

"jumping straight to divorce."

The OP has been thinking about this for 3 years and clearly the cycle hasn't been broken. The danger of this kind of relationship is that everyone gets into a behavioural rut of set pieces... 'He always does this when I say that'... etc. As more time goes on, this becomes the norm whereas an onlooker would describe it as totally abnormal. The OP is only sticking it out because it's what everyone's used to and they feel some vestigial sense of obligation. But the real problem is that they can't visualise life any other way.