So when do I actually consider divorce, then?

[Torpor]

Before I start - this is not all about attention seeking because I'm fine, feeling calm and purely after some clear thinking.

Why I am thinking about it
We are not in love anymore. I do not feel love.
I do not particularly like him or share his views.
We are not very similar.
We bicker constantly and have reached a stage where we have very little respect for each other's feelings anymore.
The above ^^^ is surely having a negative impact upon our small childrem. I hate this.
He is not supportive of me or my feelings or ambitions. He does, however, expect full support back.
He is pretty lazy around the house and flies into a rage if I try to suggest he could help.
Ah yes, the rage: he flies into rages all the time. I very obviously irritate the shit out of him, even when I try not to. Particularly when I try not to.
He also irritates the shit out of me.

Why I don't want to get divorced
Oh god. Divorce. How depressing.
My children. Yup, he's toilet as a husband, but he's pretty bloody good with the kids.
Maybe it's just because we've got 2 small children and didn't spend that much time together before we got married and had babies?
The money/house/work situation: we just about get by as a couple. I have no idea how we would get by if we had two separate households.
I really want to be happy and to stay married. I wish our marriage worked. I have no appetite for singledom.

What do y'll think? I've been musing over it for about 3 years and am not any further ahead.

Sorry, I knew I'd phrased that badly after I wrote it. Didn't mean she hadn't considered it long and hard - just that there might be some intermediate step possible.

Back again.

Thank you very much for all your responses and for sharing your own stories. It is a big relief to 'talk' about it like this.

minipie, I am inclined to wait until the children are older before finalising things, because, like you say, I think that we have had a pretty tough first few years. We had a baby, house and wedding certificate within the first year: there has been very little quality time together. Of course, I also wonder if we would have stayed together if we had taken things more slowly. The gaping differences in our personalities were very much there from the start, but we did so much want to move our lives along.

We have accrued such an array of bitterness and bad behaviour that counselling is going to be a necessity.

But I truly don't want to throw away our future. On paper (if you can side-step the small issue of our complete personal incompatibility), we could be ssomething really special.

ifeelthesame: jsut to make people shudder a bit more ... I think I know exactly how you feel and I actually did go on to have another baby, despite knowing that our relationship was seriously under strain. DS was 2.5 when I fell pregnant with my second baby.

My friend advised me, well aware of her own cynicism, to have the second baby because then I would have my two children, and they would have each other, with the additional ease of them having the same (proven responsible) father. Then to consider the issue of the marriage separately and later. That's exactly what I've done and I am very grateful for my second baby. I also feel it was horribly irresponsible and selfish, to bring another child into a barely functioning relationship.

On balance, I wouldn't change anything, but I know I primarily acted for my own reasons.

I'm going to push for counselling, I think. I don't feel ready to end the relationship all by myself, and who's to say what decisions counselling will help us reach. But we do need help.

Thanks, all x

Wishing you the best of luck x

I think your message is food for thought for many married women with small children and english husbands. (Just seen Toy Story 3: Buzz has a Spanish mode feature - One of those would turn my husband into the perfect man). Passion died in my marriage as as soon as I became a responsible mum and a good housewife (He fell in love with the childish, silly, crazy, sexy little tease that I used to be only 6 years ago). Now we are just two adults who live together for the sake of the children and pretend to still love eachother. We make a perfect family picture but inside we are ...so far away. We don't go out anymore because, he can't stop yawning at the romantic dinner table and it just feels like hard work on my side, trying to keep the conversation going. When at home, we don't do any things together. Sex is boring,mechanical and rare. Romance and passion, if we would attempt it now, would feel highly unatural. We don't usually talk but sometimes I talk to him about how undesirable he makes me feel and he admits that he is wrong and promises to try a bit harder, but he never does. Anyway, when I do this talk, I am aware that I am demanding him to love me and I realise how ridiculous this is. On the other hand, I am loveable and young and I cannot help but feel trapped wasted and that I am missing something. I am missing the "happily" in "happily ever after". Silly fairytales!!!
On the plus side, he does work a lot and earns a decent wage. He is tired all the time, and, when he doesn't fall asleep reading kids stories, he is a good father and generally a decent person.
Yes I am lonely, got no friends but I also know there is a tough and wicked world out there and I do like to have my man in the house for all the things that he does do like making me feel safe, if not loved. Moreover, who says that a new man would be better than this? Maybe I just need to find other ways to happiness apart from the adoring gaze of my husband. Maybe I just need to stop being needy, give him the space he needs and the time alone that he loves so much.
So, whatever you decide to do, I wish it will bring you happiness.

if you are not in love with your husband anymore, your marriage is already over - sorry, but that is the truth of it. My DH drives me mad sometimes, and I him. Like you and your DH we are very different people - he much more conventional than me ( he is son of daily mail reading excruciatingly "normal" upper working class parents, I am daughter of guardian reading upper middle class very unconventional parents). However, no matter what we have fallen out about, or how cross we get, in between the occasional blazing row we are really happy together, and love each other very much, and are always loving and affectionate to each other. You say that there is no love in your marriage anymore - if that is the case, then what is there to save really?

SweetAlice - what jumps out to me from your post is tiredness. I expect that you are too tired from the children to retain any of the silly/sexy etc characteristics that he used to love; and he is too tired to have proper conversations with you or show you any affection or sexual interest. And you are both too tired to do anything together.

I wondered if it might be possible for him to move to a less demanding job? I know this might mean he earns a lot less but it could be worth it if you were all happier. Again, I really am not trying to suggest there is a quick fix here - just wondered if it might be something that could help. Feel free to ignore me if I am off track.

And again,

The point I was trying to make last night, is that we are now responsible adults. Being responsible, sensible and reasonable is not sexy at all. It is boring. Bust we must be that way, for the sake of our children. We want them to have a decent life, in a decent neighbourhood, so they can grow up and get a decent job and most likely be bored to death with it
Travelling around the world on a motorbike, would spice things up a bit but it is unrealistic with two small kids in tow.

So, Minipie, we might be tired, but more than that we are bored with eachother and with the life we live (average everything). I just have to come to terms with the fact that THIS IS IT, is natural and I must try to love it as it is.
Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, it is about dancing in the rain.

"we might be tired, but more than that we are bored with eachother and with the life we live (average everything)."

Sorry to bang on, but I do think that boredom is often be linked to tiredness. The most average, domestic, life can be interesting and fun if you flirt, to have interesting conversations with each other, to do new stuff every so often. But you need energy to do all that. If you are dog tired then you only have the energy to do the chores and the routine. Everything else (flirting, sex, interesting conversation, etc) is discarded because you don't have the time or energy.

Minipie,
So, I think he is tired or bored, or both. Gving up work or working less is out of the question so "flirting, sex, interesting conversation..." feels like it is not for us anymore. Occasionally we manage to get away on our own for a couple nights and here's what happens: I dress up, I look gorgeous, I smile and flirt the best I can. He notices, becomes uncomfortable and takes the piss. No compliments. I give up and start doing small talk about about ..kids, education, neighbours booring stuff. He participates a little but mostly listens. Everything is comfy again. Back in our room, he tells me he still loves me and kisses me and thinks that is enough to turn me on. The rest is all mechanics. He is quite good at it so I compliment him on his skills, sexyness, softness of his skin and loads more. I get nothing back. Just the action. I feel compelled to reward his efforts and the skills that I just complimented and so I fake it. He is happy that he pleased me, I am happy that I pleased him and this is how pretend we're doing fine. I told him many times before that my most erogeneous body part is my ear and my ego, but he just doens't ever take that route anymore. I sometimes suspect that he wants to distroy any trace of confidence I have left or I dont know...What do you make of this.
Sorry Torpor for talking so much about myself on your thread. I just hope that by writing this, I can let you know that there are other women ou there is similar sort of shoes.

Best of luck!

you ve got two small children, its quite normal to have problematic relationship with husband before the smallest baby reaches the 'magic' 4 years of age. i would wait and see. if you are not abusive towards each other, children will be much more happy with both of you in the house.