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Original poster

to be cross with the 32% of the population who think ivf shouldn't be available on the NHS

505 replies

tholeon · 03/08/2010 19:17

I read an article in the paper this morning saying that only 68% of the population think that ivf should be available on the NHS.

I have an ivf DC. He is the best thing that has happened to me. Infertility was the worst. We are lucky in that we could pay for the treatment without bankrupting ourselves. Not lucky in the 'hurrah lets whip £10k out of our back pockets to pay for all these lovely invasive and unpleasent treatments that may not work, while other people just get to have a nice shag' sort of way - but still, relatively so. I know plently people on fertility forums who are unable to afford treatment at all.

Any of the 32% out there? I know money is tight, but infertility is a medical condition, and it causes great heartache and unhappiness in a way that might be hard to understand for those who have not been through it themselves or seen it at first hand. So why do so many people see it as such a low priority?

OP posts:
loopyloops · 04/08/2010 12:01

totally agree FBM.

sarah293 · 04/08/2010 12:01

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DuelingFanjo · 04/08/2010 12:03

I think it's an awful idea to encourage people who don't want to continue a pregnancy to keep on going so they produce a child for adoption.

weegiemum · 04/08/2010 12:07

Oh Riven, I know about the lack in Mental Health services.

When I was psychotically depressed my "emergency" psychiatrist appointment took 3-4 months to come through! I had to actually have tried to kill myself before they would see me sooner, not just be thinking about it every hour of the day and night.

Until that kind of thing has been addressed I for one would not be voting for the increase of ivf provision, but that probably makes me too focused on my own circumstances or something? (not @Riven, but just generally!)

FreddoBaggyMac · 04/08/2010 12:08

So do you think it's a better idea to just get rid of the child then DuelingFanjo? And then pay lots of money so someone else can have another child?? Cos that is something I really struggle with to be honest...

LIZS · 04/08/2010 12:08

Sad facts are that there simply aren't enough resources to cover everyone's need. Indeed I'm not sure that the Welfare State was really set up with non-acute conditions and long term care of the elderly, for example, in mind.

IVF carries with it not only a high rate of failure and costly drugs but potential risks to both the woman undergoing treatment, requiring additional care, and the baby, some of which have yet to be understood.

sanielle · 04/08/2010 12:09

To the poster who said they knew they would never go down the IVF route if they couldn't have children. HOw did you know? You couldn't possibly know.

And the urge to have a child it isnt just broodyness... it becomes and obsession after years. It isn't cut and dry.. And many woman back in the good old days had the option of sneakily getting a baby (because they were availabel for adoption) If you woudl like to go back to those ways you will have to close adoptions the way they used to be.. Which caused much heartache to the adoptee who may have found out later.

sanielle · 04/08/2010 12:10

Dueling fanjo, sorry I didn't congratulate you on your baby! its the pregnancy brain I blame! I will watch the video when I get home (can't watch videos at work!)

loopyloops · 04/08/2010 12:11

Should the state pay to remedy all obsessions Sanielle?

FreddoBaggyMac · 04/08/2010 12:14

it was me Sanielle and I do know for sure, although I also know it would have been hard to accept. But me and DH discussed it before we got married and agreed that we would not go down that route. I also know an extremely inspirational lady (now in her 50s) who was desparate to have children when she got married but couldn't have them, eventually managed to accept it and has since lived her life in a way I'm in awe of. I'd have used her as my role model, but it would not have been easy i know.

You are right it is obsession, but surely that is not healthy and that is why I spoke about counselling.

sanielle · 04/08/2010 12:19

I like to think if I saw someone in a fight or being mugged that I would try and help. BUt I don't KNOW that I would because I have never been in that situation. You don't know anything. Having some cute little discussion with DH about "what if" is not the same. No one thinks yeah IVF that is the route for me.. Not until you need it.

fruitstick · 04/08/2010 12:22

Without wishing to go off subject, I think this is a side effect of what has happened to our culture over the last 40 years.

I have no solution and we can't go back but .....

My Mum had 3 children before she was 23. She was married, Dad had a steady job, they saved enough to buy a small house (and stayed together for 40 years).

Fast forward 40 years and vast numbers of teenagers are going to university to do degrees nobody (not they, nor the state) can afford which won't get them a job. Their student debt means they will never be able to save and house prices mean that even if they did they wouldn't be able to afford a house anyway. We all move around so much we are meeting our partners later and later and so choosing to have children later. Although that doesn't mean leaving it too late, it does mean that there is a rush if their are problems conceiving to solve these, rather than having more time to give.

As a consequence, the need for IVF is accelerating and the desire for a baby is heightened because women have spent 10 to 15 years assuming they will have one, rather than finding out at 20 that it might be difficult and coming to terms with it.

As I say, I don't have a solution to this and I'm really not singling out women with fertility issues, it is the same for all of us. It just seems that the need for IVF is a natural consequence of all of this and suddenly, for many economic reasons, we can't afford it all.

sarah293 · 04/08/2010 12:23

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Message withdrawn

weegiemum · 04/08/2010 12:25

Sanielle, I think you are suggesting that people can not possibly have empathy or see things from another perspective.

I also would not have had ivf. It wasn't a "cute little discussion". It was about what we thought about issues of life and death and childbearing after 2 mcs. It was that I could never, due to my beleifs, have allowed a doctor to create embryos which would then be rejected and destroyed.

Just as some of us here cannot understand what you have been through, there are also things which people here have decided/experienced which you do not understand. I will never have another child (yes I know I am lucky to have dcs) even though I would like it as I have crippling pnd after each pregnancy, a pregnancy related kidney condition and am now prematurely undergoing the menopause. You potentially have no idea what these things are like, but that doesn't preclude you having an opinion on them!

BarmyArmy · 04/08/2010 12:27

Transplants I can understand - a lung or a heart is a 'must-have'.

A baby is clearly a 'nice-to-have' and as such comes a lot lower down my list of priorities.

FreddoBaggyMac · 04/08/2010 12:30

Believe me it was not a ''cute little discussion'' Sanielle! Of course I have not been in the situation so I cannot prove it but I can only say that I was prepared to have to try to deal with not being able to have children. Also, irrespective of me, there are people who do deal with it without IVF, the lady I mentioned before and also several other friends of mine have not been able to have children and have not gone down the IVF route - it is possible. Although I in no way negating how hard it must be to have to change the plans you have for your life so much... I am just saying it is possible and I hope I'd have managed it.

FreddoBaggyMac · 04/08/2010 12:32

Fab posting weegiemum. My beliefs are the same.

capricorn76 · 04/08/2010 12:33

@Sanielle you are dead right, you do not know how you would handle a particular situation until you're faced with it. Nobody 'wants' to have IVF. Congrats on your pregnancy by the way.

I also don't brag about my pregnancy on Facebook. I think having a hard time conceiving has made me very sensitive to others feelings.

By the way does anyone on here who doesn't agree with IVF on the NHS claim things such as Maternity Grants and Child Tax credits? Many people would say that this was also a waste of tax payers money. There are many childless people who have to subsidize other peoples children in one way or another and they don't argue for it to be scrapped because some people aren't getting cancer drugs...

The NHS is a very complicated system and we all pay for things that we may not agree with such as providing treatment for people hurt in alcohol related incidents, people who have heart problems because of bad lifestyle habits or hypochondriacs who run to the GP/hospital everytime they have a minor complaint etc, however, this is how it works unless you want a privatized healthcare system which I don't. The proportion of women who claim for IVF on the NHS in tiny, one days money spent in Afghanistan would more than cover are years worth of NHS IVF treatments.

draftywindows · 04/08/2010 12:36

It is very unlikley I will ever have a second child , it is therefore unlikely my husband will have his own child. Perhaps it is our own fault, we waited until we could afford a child.

I agree with someone above who said it becomes worse when it is a faint possibility rather than completely ruled out. We had accepted that we would never have our own child together and we had started to make plans for a different life than the one we had imagined. But then I fell pregnant and we started to dream, then I miscarried and the dream went. We have had 3 further miscarriages. I am starting to accept it will never happen.

It does hurt, at work at the moment there seems to be pregnant women everywhere. A number of times I have hidden in the loo and sobbed. I don't avoid shopping centres and it does not consume my whole life but I am tinged with a feeling of emptiness and sadness. I feel as if I have trapped DH into a secondary existence - denied him a child.

Having said all this I don't think that IVF should be on the NHS. I don't know if IVF would even help someone like me.

I recognise I am lucky to have one child, I now recognise she is a luxury.

FreddoBaggyMac · 04/08/2010 12:38

It is just not true to say that people don't know how they would handle a situation until they are faced with it! If you have firm beliefs and principles that you base your life upon then there are some situations that you can know how you would handle! Not all people seek immediate escape from situations which are difficult...

DuelingFanjo · 04/08/2010 12:38

"So do you think it's a better idea to just get rid of the child then DuelingFanjo?"

yes, well I think it's better that people have a choice to end the pregnancy if they wish. It would be a whole lot worse if women were being pressured into giving birth to children they do not want to bring intothe world to satisfy people's need for babies.

It's a revolting idea to me.

FreddoBaggyMac · 04/08/2010 12:42

Another subject, but draftywindows I think it's wonderful how you've accepted your situation and you show how it is possible although extremely hard. Being an only child has its definite advantages and it sounds like your dd has a wonderful mum and it not losing out at all. I bet your dh doesn't feel at all like you imagine, I hope you tell him your feelings about it all.

omnishambles · 04/08/2010 12:44

Have written 3 answers to this now and deleted them all.

But agree life is full of all sorts of grief and all sorts of awful situations and we do need to cope with them either on our own or with family/external help.

I thought infertility was the worst most obsessing thing that had ever happened to me until I lost my mother and that is nothing compared to what someone like Riven has to do everyday.

We all have to deal with the life we are given.

I dont know what the answer is though - we cant have the NHS playing God really deciding who or who is not worthy of treatment.

DuelingFanjo · 04/08/2010 12:45

Having firm opinions and beliefs about creating embryos puts a completely different slant on things - you are using your personal/moral/religious beliefs to be prescriptive about what other people would choose. You think it's wrong and so therefore it's colouring your view to start with.

Now if you think it's a waste of money then fine, if you think it's just wrong then that's a whole different thing. Some people think Abortion is wrong but that doesn't mean women should not have the choice if they want it. Sorry but it really doesn't work like that in the real world.

you may choose not to have IVF based upon your view that it is just wrong but you shouldn't extend that to everyone and then dress it up as an economic thing.

FreddoBaggyMac · 04/08/2010 12:45

Well DuellingFanjo the most 'revolting' idea to me is killing a baby before he/she has the chance to be born, so that is where we differ.

And incidentally I mentioned nothing about 'pressuring' people to have babies, just giving them some financial support so there is an alternative to abortion for them.

I will leave my postings there as I think I've made my position clear!

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