to be cross with the 32% of the population who think ivf shouldn't be available on the NHS

[tholeon]

I read an article in the paper this morning saying that only 68% of the population think that ivf should be available on the NHS.

I have an ivf DC. He is the best thing that has happened to me. Infertility was the worst. We are lucky in that we could pay for the treatment without bankrupting ourselves. Not lucky in the 'hurrah lets whip £10k out of our back pockets to pay for all these lovely invasive and unpleasent treatments that may not work, while other people just get to have a nice shag' sort of way - but still, relatively so. I know plently people on fertility forums who are unable to afford treatment at all.

Any of the 32% out there? I know money is tight, but infertility is a medical condition, and it causes great heartache and unhappiness in a way that might be hard to understand for those who have not been through it themselves or seen it at first hand. So why do so many people see it as such a low priority?

I think the problem really is that people don't understand that it is genuinely detrimental to your health AND THE WAY YOU LIVE YOUR LIFE.

1. I could not go in to an ASDA on a Saturday because I couldn't stand to see all the families with children. I would literally break down and have to leave.

1. I am not attending a pregnancy swim class it is the first time I would have been able to see a group of pregnant women and not actually wished I was dead.

1. I could not visit friends or family with new babies or go to christenings.

it impacted the way I thought, felt and for years I sobbed in to my pillow MOST nights.

I was very lucky that in the end I got pregnant without the use of IVF.. I don't believe I was mentally stable enough to handle the disappointment of it failing if I had tried

Now I am pregnant these feeling have nearly vanished. I am so happy I feel like my life is worth living again..and that is with the occasional bout of pregnancy depression..and not being able to eat without vomiting for weeks on end.

Loonyloop, I would have happily adopted (it was my preference in fact) My husband would not consider it. He wanted 'his' baby. His family's sticky outty ears.. my stubborness.. sigh.

You can not force someone to adopt..even if I could have I would not. I would not risk him being bitter towards a child.(even though I don't feel he would). You have to want to adopt for it to work. The children in care need much help and the people who do it are pretty damn special. Not every parent is designed for that.

Sanielle, congratulations on your pregnancy. It's a hard road isn't it? x

I think IVF is wonderful... but I don't think I and every other tax payer should be paying for people to have it. I'd make exceptions for treatment arising out of another treatment e.g. egg / embryo freezing if someone is having chemo etc.
However I wouldn't pay for IVF or indeed any fertility investigations in other circumstances.

There may well be a medcial cause for infertility, but that doesn't mean it is something that needs to be treated by the NHS. In a magical mystical land where we've found the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow - fine, have unlimited IVF on the NHS. Until we do, pay for your own.

loopyloops lots of people resist adoption because the process is as hard as if not harder than fertility treatments.

@Loopyloo. I wanted my own biological child because I wanted my own biological child. I can't explain it so it probably is an instinctive need to pass on my own genes. I do not believe it is selfish to feel that way.

Also if I had of had IVF I don't believe the kid would have inherited fertility problems. I'm one of 4 kids which means that my parents had no fertility issues, so I didn't inherit it from them, it was just bad luck.

I am in two minds on this one. The NHS is in a mess and IVF is not a life essential. However my cousin had IVF and it gave her great happiness to have a child. However I think that part of the problem was that she left trying to have a child until 35.

I would be contravesal and look at ways of actively encouraging people to have their babies in their twenties or early thirties and reduce the need for IVF. If someone had two children in their twenties then they still have plenty of working life left. The governant needs to look at ways of stopping age discrimination.

I think the arguement about cancer patients is a bit spurious. Even if the entire resources of the NHS were put into cancer treatment then peole would still die. Everyone dies at some point. Cancer is nasty, but so are many other ways to die.

My son had digital hearing aids on the NHS for 18 months. This would have cost the NHS 3K. However deafness is not a life threatening condition. Should that 3K have been spent of cancer patients. Where do we draw the line.

I think the problem with IVF is the unfairness across the country. I think that people should pay something towards the cost of treatment. Maybe there should be cheap loans rather like student loans and not using the buying power of the NHS to get the cost of drugs down is silly. 5K is about the cost of a car. I think if you cannot afford 5K over a period of yeas then you can afford a child.

sanielle I can sympathise.

Do youes now feel guilty about being pregnant? Having been there too, when I am out and about in Asda or wherever I do wonder how many couples there might be near me who are actually upset by my bump

Why is IVF treatment so expensive?

reallytired - deafness may not be life threatening, but neither is the need for a replacement hip etc. They are things that require treatment for a health reason and should be provided on the NHS - I think your little boy's treatment was a life essential. Not being able to have a baby is just not the same thing. Though I do agree that we seem to obsess over cancer when there are lots of other conditions in need of funding.

Yes I agree DF, why is the adoption process so difficult? Should it be the same as IVF? I don't know. I do, however, think it needs to be looked into as a priority. Surely existing children should come first?

I get really upset by people's bumps and babies too, even though I haven't needed IVF. (DTD1 was stillborn). Please try not to feel guilty about your fortune, you must try and enjoy it, regardless of how others feel.

Frankly, we are lucky to have an NHS at all. However it is all worked out there will be unhappy customers, sadly the money simply isn't there.

I am one of the 32% and that is as somebody who had 3 goes of IVF (1 NHS and 2 Paid for) and none worked, after last treatment Drs told us bluntly not too waste anymore money as would be a huge miracle ever to work.

Sat down with DH and talked about what we wanted and we wanted children, realised it wasn't our right and obviously God had plans for us.

We decided to adopt and got a sibling group of three (5yrs ago next month), they were 41/2, 21/4 and 10 months.

Have to say i was never as depressed as some of the ladies on this thread and cannot see why more people don't adopt.

But agree that there is far more important treatments for the NHS to fund.

Early fertility interventions such as clomiphene are not expensive for the NHS to provide and have a good success rate compared with IVF for women that are not ovulating regularly. I don't see the point in stopping those types of treatments on the NHS.

Also, infertility diagnostic workups can uncover problems such as polycystic ovary syndrome that have possible metabolic and cardiovascular health implications. Uncovering these conditions give patients the opportunity to modify their lifestyle and avoid some of the consequences that would cost the NHS more in years to come, such as diabetes.

I don't know whether IVF should be fully funded by the NHS or not. We need to see the economics of offering vs not offering the treatment, and the effects on quality of life for infertile couples and for people with other conditions that the NHS currently treats.

Thank you boiledegg, dueling fanjo.. DF I hope I don't hurt anyone's feelings when I get bigger I never discuss it on facebook and many of my friends don't even know yet (bump still loosk like fat I think!

I agree with loopyloops.

I've been umming and srring about whether to post on here as I'm sure my views will not be popular - but this is mumsnet, I'm allowed to be controversial, and here are my views anyway...

I do not think IVF should be available on the NHS. like many previous posters have said there are hundreds of higher priorities. Some of those include things mentioned here such as disabled children needing new wheelchairs and children with hearing problems, and also sufferers of terminal illnesses being allowed to die in the most dignified way possible.

I have been able to have children naturally but always knew that if I hadn't i would not have gone down the IVF route. Giving birth is obviously no the be all and end all in life, there are other ways to find fulfillment. And I know I'm stating the obvious but having a baby does not mean that you will stay happy and fulfilled for the rest of your life. Anyone who cannot go to a shopping centre because they cannot face seeing babies because they cannot conceive themself need counselling rather than IVF (imo - which I'm sure will not be popular as I've said).

Finally I see it as complete madness that the NHS (which is so fabulous in many ways) spends money on aborting unwanted babies and more money on trying to create babies for people who cannot have them. It's taking control of nature in a way which to me seems fundamentally wrong...

Me too Sanielle, I try not to post stuff about my pregnancy and have made scan photos private. Once you have been through the infertility rollercoaster it does make you more sympathetic towards other people I think.

have you seen this video? I first saw it when I was waiting to see if the IVF had worked.

"I would be contraversial and look at ways of actively encouraging people to have their babies in their twenties or early thirties"

I tend to agree. But jesus, its a contraversial one! for one society has changed so people finish education later with shed loads of debt, and cant afford a home, etc etc. our parents were married and settled by their early 20s in the main

i also think that we cannot/will not accepot that some people CANT have babies. There is not always a solution, painful though it is

its not black and white, thats for sure

mumwhereareyou you are talking a lot of sense!

Some of you are absolutely disgusting in your attitude to infertile women.

Fact:
You won't even get a referral to a fertility consultant if your BMI isn't in the range 18-30

Fact:
In my NHS region - you're ineligible for IVF over the age of 34, a breach of NICE guidelines which state 39 as a cutoff

Fact:
You don't get infinite goes at the tax payer's expense - you get 3 goes max, in my area, again against NICE guidelines you get one try.

Fact:
Surprisingly most couples going through fertility treatment aren't doing it because they spent their early 30s lying on a beach living it up large style and left it too late. If they're pushing mid-30s by the time they hit the IVF point - it's because they've had to wait a year to be acknowledged there's a problem, then another 3 months for an initial set of scans (basing this one on my PCT and the waits I've had), then you've got to wait till the right points in cycles for hormonal checks etc, then you've got to join the queue to wait for a consultant before going through it all again - you can quite easily tick away a couple of years mouldering in the system (meanwhile you're bandy legged and sore from all the sex and single handedly supporting the UK pregnancy test industry every month).

We started our infertility journey when I was 28... I'm now 32. We're ineligible for NHS IVF, and shockingly, we don't have a disposable 10 grand to go private at the moment - so according to some of the ignoramuses on this thread - we shouldn't be allowed to have kids because we're not "financially secure"... do those of you on this thread throwing that around have a spare 10 grand you could pull out of nowhere? I doubt it - so hand your kids in since you're ineligible to have them given your own criteria.

Now look at your kids, imagine putting your everything, your life savings, the equity in your house, an inheritance, your parents' savings (I know a lot of people whose parents have helped them afford IVF)... and imagine having ONE shot, one shag as your own chance of having that child. Imagine how it would feel to put all that into it - and for it to fail (can add in a nice side order of hormonal warfare if you really want to).

Add in people saying that those who are infertile are, the delightful phrase that cropped up on here the other day, "evolutionary dead ends"... add in the burning, searing NEED for a child... and try to imagine just how painful some of your ignorant, smug, insensitive comments might be making some reading this thread feel.

Personally - I think the NHS should pay half for the three tries. I think that's a fair middle point. It's immaterial to me, I have fertility issues but won't qualify for their help anyway - IVF's a door firmly closed for us - but the biggest threat to my emotional (and physical - I've contemplated suicide and self-harm several times in an attempt to end the pain of infertility) wellbeing IS my infertility. I'd be willing to bet it DOES kill in terms of women deciding they just can't go on with it anymore - especially in a world where people make disgusting comments like some of them I've read in this thread.

Think about what you're saying - you may be blessed, but we're NOT subhuman or freaks - we're couples who, for whatever reason, have bits that aren't quite working right... you wouldn't tell a disabled person they were a freak or an evolutionary dead end - why is it acceptable to say it to us?

"Anyone who cannot go to a shopping centre because they cannot face seeing babies because they cannot conceive themself need counselling rather than IVF "

on the NHS?

Yes on the NHS, counselling would be a necessity in those circumstances I think if someone is that depressed (and would use fewer resources in a more sensible way imo)

EmptyShell I'm really sorry if anyone's post has upset you, but I'm struggling to see where people with fertility problems have been treated like freaks on here.

Emptyshell, I cannot imagine anyone would see you as a subhuman freak (if they do it's them who has the problem). All I'm saying is that there is more to life than having children and whether you can have them or not certainly doesn't make you any more or less of a person. it's how to deal with the situation that you find yourself in that's important.

What loopyloops just said.

Emptyshell IMO this has been a balanced and fair discussion of the issues - without slaggin off or emotive language.

If you have a burning NEED to have a child, as you have mentioned, which has caused you to consider self-harm and suicide, then I doubt that the ivf you are barred from is the help you need. Anyone who is undergoing life-circumstances which give them such feelings needs psychological or psychiatric help before anything else.

I'm sure that in some way this will have offended you, but those sorts of feelings (which I have experienced, sadly, because I had children, amongst other reasons) have to be treated in and of themselves.

I hope you finally get the outcome and help that you want and need.

What I'd like to see is more money going towards people with unwanted pregnancies SUPPORTING them to carry on with their pregnancy (obviously not paying them a salary or anything - just perhaps providing them with an alternative to abortion) and more adoptions as an alternative to IVF.
Is that such a ridiculous idea? i know it would take a lot of work to control and organise etc, but wouldn't it be better in the long term?