to not want to accept 50% or more of the blame (regarding bullying)

[BeethovensSideburns]

I'll try and keep this brief-ish but not leave out anything major so as not to drip-feed.

I've just come back from a soft play get together with a group of friends and children. We see each other once or twice a week and have done since our first children were born 3 years ago. Everyone knows each other and they have all played nicely together in the past.

However, in the past year or so, one of the children has become violent and antagonistic. In a nutshell, this involves screaming/growling in the face of other children, hitting, biting, and pinching, as well as toy-stealing (the kind where its done to annoy the other child as opposed to the kind where its done because they want the actual toy - he will then hide the toy rather than play with it)

He displays these behaviours fairly regularly to any children that are around - so members of our little group but also other children at soft play. But he tends to particuarly enjoy doing it to my son. As my son is the wronged party, I tend to let my friend deal with her son, and I will generally sympathise briefly with my son and encourage him to walk away and play with someone else if hit, etc. My friend has been disciplining her son for the behaviours with various methods including time out, getting him to say sorry, generally just telling him off, that kind of thing, unfortunately to no avail in that the behaviours are not really subsiding.

She recently had a day trip out with one of the other mums and her son which went swimmingly well, no incidents, and I suspect concluded from that (and the fact that after a year of it she's generally getting a bit fed up and at the end of her tether) that it is just my son who causes the behaviours in her son. She suggested today that he enjoys it when there is conflict, likes her son to get told off, and even tries to make it happen so he gets told off and makes a big fuss when something does happen to him like getting punched or bitten.

I dont personally believe he likes it, there are genuine tears when these incidents occur, which doesn't surprise me particularly as he is 3 years old and biting/hitting etc, well, hurts! I dont believe he is manipulative enough to cause the behaviours to happen, but in any event, even if in theory he was capable of that, I have seen no evidence - I spend a fair bit of time watching him though not hovering over him, and he is generally just playing with something or someone and this child will approach him, scream in his face, and if that doesn't work, hit him, or pinch him, or perhaps steal his toy.

He DOES do it to other children - he was even put in time out today for growling at a child repeatedly till she cried - and he hit a little girl today as well.

I've been pretty patient througout this period. I've never had bad words with my friend about it and all discussions on the topic have been initiated by her - I feel sorry for her that its happening, she doesn't always deal with it the way I would, but she has to parent her child as she sees fit. She has occasionally asked for my advice in the past and at the time I had said to her that she was doing all she could (which at the time she was though there have been times since where I feel she's given up a bit).

Yet today she initiated a conversation with me where she seemed keen for me to apportion half the blame on my son, she says its 6 of one half a dozen of the other, and that whilst her son is bad for hitting/pinching/biting etc, my son is "just as bad" for reacting. This developed into a discussion where I asked her whether she really thought it was ONLY my son or whether the fact that he does it to other kids might indicate otherwise but she said "I dont have to worry at all about him when your son is not there" and that he only does it when we are about.

Okay. So I know this isn't the case, because I've heard the stories of times when I've not been there. The conversation ended soon after, on good terms in that we didn't fall out about it, I didn't contribute a lot more because to be honest I disagreed with her so I felt it better to just let her talk and not challenge her too much - she's a reasonable woman generally and I guess I'm hoping she will go away and think about what she said and regain her memory and remember the other times he's done it (or even the fact that she timed out him this morning, for that matter!)

AIBU to think the only decent thing for me to do is stay away for a few weeks - not go to soft play or our coffee afternoon get togethers for a few weeks, let her see that he does do it to others, and if for some reason he doesn't, at least just give her a break from being the mum with the troublesome son?

Also, AIBU to be a little miffed - my son has been a target for her son, though not the only target, has attracted a lot of the undesirable behaviour. Should he really be to blame for it when there has been no signs of antagonising on his behalf?

Should I be concerned that my son seems to attract a lot of this behaviour? I should say that I am never aware of him having had any trouble with other children - he doesn't get picked on at preschool, he's a big strapping lad, is handsome and personable, and confident. He doesn't seem to attract it per se - just from this particular little guy, possibly because he was his first "friend" (they were thick as theives as "babies", they used to crawl off giggling and climb the stairs together, that kind of thing). I'm hoping it doesn't mean he's going to be a target for bullying or undesirable behaviour from others - but short of teach him to hit back, I'm not sure what else I can do at this stage anyway, I really feel the solution has to lie with the perpetrator of the behaviour, not the recipient.

Views, advice and general thoughts welcome and encouraged, thanks for reading that!

I would avoid her son being with mine.
It sounds like rivalry that ideally the two lads will work out between them, there is an argument for trying to let them do it without interference.

But, TBH, the other lad could be mine with behaviour like that the difference is that I would be hovering over him as constantly as I could without giving myself a neurosis or completely ignoring needs of my other DC and I would probably be holding back on going on some outings with you because I felt so bad about the way my son picked on yours.

I think you did extremely well to remain civil!
Your friend is out of order and trying to excuse her own feeble parenting. You know your son isn't the only target.
However I suppose if he is kind, patient , and good natured like you, he is an easier target than another little tyrant.
I wonder if you can play less with this child (and his mother)and perhaps gradually engineer a breakaway group?
I know it's hard if you've all been friends for ages.

hmmm tough one
i tend to think that the only way to stop these kind of incidents is to be really watchful of the "offending" child and to remove swiftly before anything happens.
punishments/forced apologies/naughty step tend not to be taht effective IME, the behaviour needs to be prevented

from what you;ve said there your son is not antagonising the other child... but then, you are his mum and maybe not reading things he is doing as antagonistic when maybe they are to the other child?
I wondered if you could speak to some of the other friends and see if THEY think your son has been winding the other boy up or whether, as you say, the other child seems to be picking on him just because, well, just because! Just to get a more unbiased opinion on what is going on?

It seems a shame to miss out on meet-ups just because of this child.
I think I would tend to go along, but DO hover close to your son and just pre-empt any attacks by the other child and keep yours safe. however the other mum is handling it, your son does keep getting hurt... so you need to be the one to keep him out of it

My friend's DD used to do this all the time(pushing biting hitting caused a massive bump to his head) to my DS and it is awful in the end she started blaming my son, her mum would say 'DS i seen that you pushed my DD first' which of course was not true.

Thank god she moved away me and my DS breathed a sigh of relief.

She used to ask for my advice in the end i found out why her DD was like it explained a lot.

no, YANBU at all IMO.

is this boy his mum's PFB?

I just can't imagine telling somebody that their child caused my own child to hit them? on what planet, exactly, is that an excuse?

jeez - my DD (3.1) told me that a couple of kids pushed her at preschool. I asked the staff about it - NOT to complain about somebody pushing my own PFB, but to check my PFB hadn't pushed back! and she hadn't

what I mean is, that is utterly laughable that your friend thinks it is somehow your son's fault. children should know not to hit.

if her DS was well behaved on this day trip, maybe it was because it was a new situation - was it a different place they went to?

Stay away for a few weeks by the time you come back she will have realised it is not only your DS that this happens too.

BTW, how old is this boy? Presumably pretty young. He will probably grow out of it soon enough if she is being persistent in punishing him. Then at least you can all forget about it...

I would not stay away at all, have a word with the other mums and basically rally around together and provide a united front that basically she watches her boy like a hawk and does let him have any opportunity to hit your boy or else she finds new friends.
And point out to the rest of the group you've done nothing to provoke this and if it's not you and your son, it'll be their child instead so they need to back you up.
If they don't they aren't your friends.

Hmm I don't think you are being unreasonable. Is your son quite placid? That's the most obvious reason why he is targeted. Your friends got a bloody cheek imo. She's basically excusing her DS's behaviour which isn't on.

Thanks for your replies (and congratulations for getting through that big essay!)

I'm fairly certain he's not antagonising, generally because he is just playing with another child or with a toy of some kind when he does it - its almost like it annoys him that a child can be playing nicely, so if that in its own right is an antagonist, so be it, but its not anything I can really do about! Almost like he dosn't want him to have another friend or be quietly/happily playing - sort of like, if you are not all eyes on me, I'll break into your game by any means I can. Also, during discussions (with this mum present of course) about the behaviours, I've had other members of the group say that it is "unprovoked" - not just in relation to my son, but generally.

If he (and the others) are antagonising him, its by accident and through innocent behaviours - his speech isn't that good, perahps he is frustrated that he can't communicate, etc. So I suppose things like that might be winding him up but there's not a lot we can do about that, basically they are just generally playing and he'll storm in and attack.

It is her PFB, and my son is my PFB.

I think she is at the end of her tether - we have had tears from her on several occasions over it. I am more than happy to acknowledge that he is probably worse when my son is about - but that, I feel is because my son is a special target of his as opposed to my son being an antagonist.

I dont want to make my son sound perfect, he isn't - but one thing he doesn't do is hit or fight. He is a very gentle, placid boy, always has been. He does other things that annoy ME - he's a preschooler, bit picky with food, monkey who runs away when I try and put him to bed, that kind of thing! He's no angel, but he plays really, really nicely, I've taught him to share and not to snatch toys, he knows its wrong to hit pinch and bite, and apart from a brief phase of doing this when he was a baby and first sprouted teeth, has never done it.

My main focus has been on getting him not to react too much when he gets targeted - he gets a cuddle if its a bad one and he's crying (we've had teeth marks in his wrist 3 days later showing, scratches down his face, all sorts so I dont think he's too much of a mummy's boy!) and when its undesirable stuff like the screaming in his face thing he does, I've been really concentrating on getting him to just walk away and play with someone else - this gives a natural consequence to the child who is doing the bad behaviour, and solves the situation even if the mother is not around to discipline the perpetrator.

Arghrrr. It leaves me in a pickle because pre-school is shut for the summer, and its a case of finding enough to do without going crazy (SAHM with a younger child as well) so without my usual friend group I really am in the poo. I just feel after our conversation today there is no way I can continue to participate, if for no reason other than to highlight that it is by no means only to do with my son...

Well, at three years old it's hardly a bullying issue so there's no need to be thinking about your son becoming a 'target' in the future and certainly no reason fpr you to start teaching him to 'hit back' (v bad form imho).

The child is either being inconsistently parented, inadequately supervised or if none of those are the case then there may possibly or potentially be some SN issues. Or he's after reactions/attention.

I wouldn't stop meeting up (not right now although would reconsider if nothing changes) and I wouldn't speak about it to the other mums but I would watch my own child more closely, as ThisIsYesterday says, to a) pre-empt things and remove your child if it looks like soemthing might kick off, b) be on hand immediately if anything does happen and c) have a v clear picture of what's going on, so you KNOW it's deffo not '6 of one etc'.

If the behaviour then continues and you know your child is an innocent victim, then I think you'll need another conversation about it with your friend and if she continues to insist on portioning blame, then maybe consider reducing the time you spend with her/frequency of visits.

Just read your reply - crossed posts!

Why should you and your child suffer from not seeing the group, though? She sounds like she's struggling a bit - would she be offended if you gave her a copy of 'How To Talk' do you think? Or maybe you could take a copy along to one of your meets and say you've found it really useful and would anybody like to borrow it?

don't stop meeting up. that just sends her the message that you agree, and that your son is at fault.

perhaps her son is playing up because he wants more attention from her? and maybe, as you say, he is frustrated because of speech issues etc

but none of that excuses the behaviour

if she won't pre-empt him and remove him from any given siutuation before harm is done then you;ll have to do it for her. and don't be afraid to tell her son that his behaviour is unacceptable either

To be honest it sounds as if she doesn't want to face up to her sons behaviour and that by blaming yours she can feel more comfortable - poor you and well done for not reacting

I had this situation recently with two of my friends and they have fallen out and no longer talk, the mother of the child thast caused the problems did as your friends has done and and accused the other child of antagonising

You will have to decide if she is a good enough friend and want to work through it - tricky best of luck

i dunno... if she has been discpiplining him up until now maybe she just is at the end of her tether?
maybe she is worried that he has some kind of special needs
maybe she just doesn;t know what to do anymore

doesn't give her any right to blame your son, or make out it's ok fo rher little boy to be doing this... but it might explain why she is taking this tack all of a sudden? trying to persuade herself it's true??

I do wonder if that's the case thisisyesterday.

She is basically a good mother, doesn't accept this kind of behaviour. I dont think she supervises enough - I have taken to doing it a bit more because if I dont, he just gets clobbered. I'm not that protective in that no real harm will come to him from being clobbered - I guess I'm worried that he'll learn the behaviour (amazed he hasn't retaliated thus far) or perhaps think that's what friendship is. So I hover a bit more recently to try and avoid it in the first place which has been reasonably effective.

Then I think (and I'm probably overthinking it) that that is perhaps why she confronted me today - perhaps she perceives an increase in the behaviours since I've been supervising more, and feels its feeding it and my son is playing up to it to get him in trouble when in actual fact I'm just intervening more in these incidents because someone is there to see them and therefore act on them! There have been times where she is completely oblivious to what is actually going on.

When he started he was younger, closer to 2 than 3, and her methods of making him apologise and telling him not to etc seemed fine, but now he's closer to 3 I can't help but think if it were me, I'd make there be more of a consequence - like going home if he does it again, or something. Just being told off doesn't seem to be working - he doesn't care. But her child, her call.

I just object to her burying her head in the sand and blaming DS.

I think I handled it well. I just sat there and listened, and I said "what would you do in my situation?" - basically that I can't dicipline him for reacting to being hit - he's not actually doing anything wrong, I can only continue to encourage him to just opt out and play with someone else. She agreed, to be fair, that there wasn't much else I could do, which is what led me to think, well, I better stay away for a while and let her mull it over. Hopefully (well not, but hey) he will continue as he is and she'll realise that he does it anyway, and that this was a random thought that entered her head and took over for a morning!

I would stay away.

It might be "familiarity breeds contempt" in that the other boy might feel that he knows he can hit your DS, and that the child he was with the other day was an unknown quantity and he was being polite (or was worried that the other child could have beaten him to a pulp). A bit like how siblings will fight because they know each other well but not be like that with children they don't know as they are on their best behaviour.

I'd keep my distance and she will probably ask what's wrong. "I value you as a friend but when you suggested that my son is any way to blame for your son's unprovoked attacks it made me worry that you were not going to bother to try to address your son's behaviour any more. So I thought we needed to steer clear." Oh I guess that's too harsh isn't it - I'd never have the nerve to say it.

It sounds like your friend's back is already up over this. It may well be that she notices her son's behaviour and is deflecting the blame because she can't take the responsibility of it on herself. She's looking for someone to excuse her, so whatever you do, don't say anything that will make her think she is in any way right, not even for a quiet group life, so to speak. The other possibility, of course, is that she genuinely believes the story about your son having a part in this. It doesn't seem like this is at all the case, but maybe it's worth being super vigilant with your son for the next playdate just to make doubly sure.

Either way, you might have to bite the bullet and have a conversation with her that you initiate. This probably won't go down too well, but it might be the one thing that kicks her into touch with how things actually are. How you approach this will have to be proportionate to how much you value her friendship. She might take it so badly that you lose her (I'm not sure it would be such a loss from what you've said, but it might make things uncomfortable with the group). When one parent criticises how another deals with their child (which is essentially what, while warranted, this is) it stings.

The last thing you should do is back away from the group. While your intention is good, what it would say to the other mother is that you concede your son's part in it, which is the wrong message to give out.

Is this a group where you can lightly discipline each other's children? If it is, perhaps you could talk to another member of the group about what to do when the 'problem' child acts up? Then you could all keep an eye out for him.

Some more thoughts (just noticed BTW that the other child is not a stranger so that stuffs my theory).

I have seen over the years a few parents of children who behave badly who seem to throw in the towel and declare themselves powerless. "What can I do?" "It's not him, it's everyone else"

I agree that at three he can't be called a bully but if she keeps this attitude he will grow up into one.

I agree with Balloon - I think it's quite remarkable that you've been able to teach your DS not to react in the face of this...my own DS would only put up with so much before his own instinct to push back would kick in! So, I think the other boy knows that he can get away with it with your DS, and not get a thumping in return.

As to how to deal with it - I wouldn't stay away from the group, but I would be extra careful when your DS and hers are together. As in, I would draw her attention to every episode of her DS's behaviour and ask her to deal with it, so she cannot remain ''oblivious''.

I am trying to think of what I do with my friens' kids, but none behave like him. When there are spats/pushing and shoving, all the mums are happy for each other to deal with any of the kids, so they have been taught to listen to what any adult says to them. Then again, it usually 6 of one/half a dozen of the other in their case!

It's tough, so good luck with whatever route you follow...

Do you know what I would do though . . . ?

Avoid her and whenever she is mentioned by other friends pull this face . When asked why I don't see her any more, I'd adopt the full cat's bum look and say "Because she reckons her DS using my DS as a punchbag is all my DS's fault." Thus causing a seismic rift in the friendship circle, everyone taking sides and getting offended.

I certainly wouldn't recommend this, but that's what I think I'd end up doing You show the most remarkable restrain, OP. I wish I had your self-control.

Haha, BalloonSlayer. I feel like it a bit - but I'd get no real satisfaction out of it, she is one of my favourite members of the group, she is brilliant at suggesting activities and is almost what keeps the group going...I really, genuinely enjoy spending time with her and wish this problem with her son would dissapear into thin air so we could get back to how things were when they were newborns.

Part of me has the air of the deeply wronged and I have fantisised this afternoon about emailing one of the other girls in the group to tell her what happened and that I'm going to have a break for a while but that I'd like to get my son together with her DD to play sometime in the next week or two so he doesn't miss out altogether but its just so flouncy and passive agressive when I think about it objectively that I'm going to resist the urge! Also, I haven't 100% decided that keeping away is the right thing to do, though there is a get together at her house this Friday that I can definitely fathom missing (its always worse at hers - sort of like he's territorial about his stuff or king of his castle or something and to add to it, the mother will be distracted because she is "host" so forget that!)

My gut feeling is that i need to deal with it or not deal with it (that is an option - to simply ignore the fact that this conversation took place, and be pragmatic enough to acknowledge that its mostly bullshit and she's probably just fed up) by not falling out with her in any way. Its just not worth it - we have so much in common, she lives round the corner, we could be friends forever. I dont want to lose her or put pressure on the group because of what is, hopefully, a bad phase her son is going through.

She needs support, but not the kind where my son is a scapegoat or a punch bag - hopefully she will come to her senses.

I'm very confident my son isn't deliberately antagonising him - mainly because this soft play place you can see to the end of the room (its small and villagy) and I've spent the last year eyeballing them. If he was genuinely winding him up I'd consider letting him take the hit and then natural consequences might mean that they just sort it out between the two of them. That would be nice, not having to deal with it! (you can tell I'm sooooo sick of it)...

I thought I'd do a quick update to let you know how it panned out!

I stayed away from the coffee afternoon she hosted that week. She was onto it straight away, with a text asking if everything was okay. I replied in a casual way but that made it obvious why - it wasn't arsey though.

She obviously felt a little bad because she stayed away from the get together the following Monday - our usual soft play meet. (It sounds like we meet up constantly but its only twice a week max, Mondays and Fridays!) One of the other girls tipped me off that she was staying away, so it must have been discussed the previous Friday in my absence. So I went.

It was great because apart from there being no incidents due to the lack of violent little man, I was able to discuss it with my other friends, and they were able to get my side of the story.

They pretty much agreed that she was losing the plot over this issue, one friend was quite polite about it but the other was not so - it seems she's getting pretty sick of the issue. We chatted and I agreed with them that the best thing to do would be the "bigger person" and give her a call, and arrange to get together with no kids to discuss the situation going forward. Long story short she did manage to wiggle out of this but we did end up going (with 2 of the other girls) out to dinner and for drinks so no problem with the friendship just between us, no kid issues, if that makes sense.

In the meantime I had decided to try a tactic with my son where he smiles and laughs if someone screams in his face instead of looking scared or crying. We did role play and I pretended to be the boy, etc.

When we next got together a couple of weeks later, things went fairly well, partly because the mum had her son on a very short leash and partly because mine didn't react to the screaming so her son went in search of other stimulation outside. She followed him out and I stayed in.

Then the next one was at my house. I was preparing cake in the kitchen, and heard a scream, followed by a cry, saw two boys tumble into the dining room and the agressive child hit the other child. I automatically sort of inwardly groaned and went to investigate because it couldn't possibly be anyone other than my son - but it was! It was the boy that she said he "plays beautifully with" in an attempt to illustrate why my son was at fault etc - and he continued to terrorise him throughout the afternoon.

She really had egg on her face because after her raising it as an issue where she implied that he only did it to my son and that it was invited by him, he really proved her wrong in the worst possible way.

Since then, she and her husband have both been fairly sheepish and hand-wringing and "end of our tether" and "not sure what to do" so at least my son is off the hook, so to speak!

I do have great sympathy for her and hope that she does get to the bottom of it. But in the meantime, I'm glad my son is not being made a scapegoat anymore, and will not tolerate that kind of thing from her in the future, which I'm pretty sure she now senses.

Well done if you got this far!

I'm glad it's working out and that you are still getting to see your friends. I do wonder if there's a middle way between teaching a child to whack someone back or to ignore it or laugh. I don't like mine hitting back, but I do teach them to stand firm if someone snatches something and say 'I was playing with that, (please) give it back' or if someone pushes them or physically hurts them, then to say firmly 'don't do that again'. I think children sometimes need a response inbetween hitting and walking away, but perhaps others disagree.

Well, she obviously realised she behaved like a complete idiot and the onus is on her to deal with her son's behaviour, not on your son to just accept the bullying.

I wonder where he's picking this stuff up(esp growling + biting, sounds odd).

Have you met her DP ?

I would be concerned about the ultimate cause of all this.