to not want to accept 50% or more of the blame (regarding bullying)

[BeethovensSideburns]

I'll try and keep this brief-ish but not leave out anything major so as not to drip-feed.

I've just come back from a soft play get together with a group of friends and children. We see each other once or twice a week and have done since our first children were born 3 years ago. Everyone knows each other and they have all played nicely together in the past.

However, in the past year or so, one of the children has become violent and antagonistic. In a nutshell, this involves screaming/growling in the face of other children, hitting, biting, and pinching, as well as toy-stealing (the kind where its done to annoy the other child as opposed to the kind where its done because they want the actual toy - he will then hide the toy rather than play with it)

He displays these behaviours fairly regularly to any children that are around - so members of our little group but also other children at soft play. But he tends to particuarly enjoy doing it to my son. As my son is the wronged party, I tend to let my friend deal with her son, and I will generally sympathise briefly with my son and encourage him to walk away and play with someone else if hit, etc. My friend has been disciplining her son for the behaviours with various methods including time out, getting him to say sorry, generally just telling him off, that kind of thing, unfortunately to no avail in that the behaviours are not really subsiding.

She recently had a day trip out with one of the other mums and her son which went swimmingly well, no incidents, and I suspect concluded from that (and the fact that after a year of it she's generally getting a bit fed up and at the end of her tether) that it is just my son who causes the behaviours in her son. She suggested today that he enjoys it when there is conflict, likes her son to get told off, and even tries to make it happen so he gets told off and makes a big fuss when something does happen to him like getting punched or bitten.

I dont personally believe he likes it, there are genuine tears when these incidents occur, which doesn't surprise me particularly as he is 3 years old and biting/hitting etc, well, hurts! I dont believe he is manipulative enough to cause the behaviours to happen, but in any event, even if in theory he was capable of that, I have seen no evidence - I spend a fair bit of time watching him though not hovering over him, and he is generally just playing with something or someone and this child will approach him, scream in his face, and if that doesn't work, hit him, or pinch him, or perhaps steal his toy.

He DOES do it to other children - he was even put in time out today for growling at a child repeatedly till she cried - and he hit a little girl today as well.

I've been pretty patient througout this period. I've never had bad words with my friend about it and all discussions on the topic have been initiated by her - I feel sorry for her that its happening, she doesn't always deal with it the way I would, but she has to parent her child as she sees fit. She has occasionally asked for my advice in the past and at the time I had said to her that she was doing all she could (which at the time she was though there have been times since where I feel she's given up a bit).

Yet today she initiated a conversation with me where she seemed keen for me to apportion half the blame on my son, she says its 6 of one half a dozen of the other, and that whilst her son is bad for hitting/pinching/biting etc, my son is "just as bad" for reacting. This developed into a discussion where I asked her whether she really thought it was ONLY my son or whether the fact that he does it to other kids might indicate otherwise but she said "I dont have to worry at all about him when your son is not there" and that he only does it when we are about.

Okay. So I know this isn't the case, because I've heard the stories of times when I've not been there. The conversation ended soon after, on good terms in that we didn't fall out about it, I didn't contribute a lot more because to be honest I disagreed with her so I felt it better to just let her talk and not challenge her too much - she's a reasonable woman generally and I guess I'm hoping she will go away and think about what she said and regain her memory and remember the other times he's done it (or even the fact that she timed out him this morning, for that matter!)

AIBU to think the only decent thing for me to do is stay away for a few weeks - not go to soft play or our coffee afternoon get togethers for a few weeks, let her see that he does do it to others, and if for some reason he doesn't, at least just give her a break from being the mum with the troublesome son?

Also, AIBU to be a little miffed - my son has been a target for her son, though not the only target, has attracted a lot of the undesirable behaviour. Should he really be to blame for it when there has been no signs of antagonising on his behalf?

Should I be concerned that my son seems to attract a lot of this behaviour? I should say that I am never aware of him having had any trouble with other children - he doesn't get picked on at preschool, he's a big strapping lad, is handsome and personable, and confident. He doesn't seem to attract it per se - just from this particular little guy, possibly because he was his first "friend" (they were thick as theives as "babies", they used to crawl off giggling and climb the stairs together, that kind of thing). I'm hoping it doesn't mean he's going to be a target for bullying or undesirable behaviour from others - but short of teach him to hit back, I'm not sure what else I can do at this stage anyway, I really feel the solution has to lie with the perpetrator of the behaviour, not the recipient.

Views, advice and general thoughts welcome and encouraged, thanks for reading that!

This happened with my dd and friends ds (who kept biting her - both 3ish). I thought (and she thought) that it was all him but as dd grew up it became apparent that she lacked basic social skills, body language issues, distance/personal space issues etc etc so I now suspect that it was the interaction between them rather than beign all on his side.

It is very difficult looking on to see whether there are issues with personal space, body language etc at this young age but I also suspect that if you are the 3 year old who is having their space invaded then you can end up appearign to bully IYSWIM. So I'd just see if it is just your dc being bullied or if it happens to all children.

Just a thought, I wonder if this little boy has glue ear? A boy at my DS's nursery used to hit/bite/scratch when he was angry, and his speech was impaired. When he was diagnosed and treated, his behaviour and speech both improved dramatically, because he could hear, pick up language, make himself understood, and so was not so frustrated. His parents were at their wits end, too, it was a very experienced nursery teacher who spotted it!

Sounds like you have given your DS the key to getting this boy to leave your DS alone, he's doing it for the effect it causes, the fear and crying. your DS has neutralised that! well done! Good call. The other little boy has come into target range now and needs to do the same.

The mum needs to keep him on a short leash until this behaviour is stopped. TBH, he needs to be told that if he does that to any child at any time, that he will be taken home there and then. And it needs to be followed through. Every. time.

OP, you have my huge sympathy - I could've written a post almost identical to yours about 4 or 5 years ago. Same circumstance - group meet-ups at least weekly, great friends but one particular chap was the devil's spawn. Vile child - once caught him whacking my DD over the head, at the top of some steps, when she was stuck in a trike. Another time I watched him work out that if he bashed a door with a ball, it would hit dd in the face (caught the door).

Now that they are older and at different schools, the problem isn't the same. At the time, the vile child was seen by some in our group as the one needing support as he had a problem, ditto his mum, whilst my DD was thought to 'bring it on herself' (even though it was not just her that got hurt).

There was a point where I couldn't even think about the situation without sobbing - it broke my heart.

One of the mums in the group has dropped out now, partly because of this boy's behaviour.

None of this is particularly helpful, but just to let you know it does get better with time and in most cases, it seems to be a phase (lots of my other friends report similar things from antenatal groups). Also, preschool does tend to help lessen the behaviour.

Good luck

We had a problem like this and DS (aged 3)used to just take it. It was so upsetting seeing him having to walk away after a punch or a push with the 'aggressor' always having the upper hand. We had always told DS not to hit back and walk away but felt that this was leaving him feel frustrated. DH told him to hit back (we had big discussions about this) and now, if the boy starts, DS hits back. It stopped the boy hitting him and DS no longer feels helpless. Luckily, the boys mum has encouraged my DS to stand up for himself to show her son it is not acceptable behaviour and he can't get away with it.

Good to hear that you're coming to an amicable solution. Your DS sounds great, as well.

This woman gives me the creeps - the way she exploits your empathy. Can you create some healthy distance. Your job is just to protect your son and maybe he shouldn't be in this kid's company too often.

You put it very well, Animation - Ime mothers of these 'vile children' are considered 'lovely' by everyone; the comment 'I don't know where he came from' is often made (by the mums as well as their friends).

I've met several in 15 years of parenting, and all three of my kids have had dealings with one or more of them.

In retrospect, I think Iwantscallops solution is best; we didn't come to this conclusion until DS1 was 8, but reluctantly agreed that hoping the other kids would somehow miraculously learn good behaviour wasn't going to work.

After all, their parents aren't socialising them, so why should your kids have to be their punchbags?

And all that 'time out' tokenism is bollocks; she hasn't a clue how to parent and can't be arsed learning how, so does this for effect in public, but no doubt only when the behaviour is so obvious everyone's seen it.

She'll become more and more adept at this ignoring, hoping that her loveliness will cancel out her crap parenting skills.

The best thing you can do is teach your DS he doesn't have to sit and take whatever this kid throws at him.

Rivalry could be a very good explanation. It is a kind of chemistry that adults can't really understand but which does exist. I recently went to visit some friends with DS, thinking it would be nice for him to play with the boy there, who's 6 months older.

Bloody hell. My little one very quickly identified this other boy as a threat, and started doing the most extraordinary and uncharacteristic things: grabbing, shouting "mine", etc. (Yes, I know, I know, it sounds as though I'm boasting that my son doesn't normally say "mine!") However, looking at it from his point of view, the other boy was no taller, yet six months more advanced, could jump, was more co-ordinated, liked his food (this is an issue with DS). Your DS sounds attractive; maybe the other boy is jealous, as mine was?

For a while it scared me, but I was really relieved when we got home and DS started playing nicely with a friend at our house, sharing toys and everything as usual (yes, sorry, boasting again, but DS is very sweet in this way - makes up for an aggressive streak which does come out at times!).

I must say that I shall be ready to keep them more separate in future, and it might work out for you, too. Sorry, though, as that is likely to be a big inconvenience. maybe they will grow out of it?

Sounds like her son is attention seeking. I also don't think he can be a bully at 3, but I do think he wants both the reaction and all the attention that comes when he is aggressive to another child.

If I were his mummy, I would take him out of the situation with minimal interaction, totally ignore him and heep cuddles and praise on the other child.

She needs to do something to break this behaviour. And while I sympathise that she is at the end of her tether. She is his mum and it is purely her and her DHs responsibility. Daft to try to put the blame else where.

My nephew is a bit like this. Not violent but can be quite mean to other kids, singleing them out and refusing to include them in play, if they annoy him.
We have all tried to tell her that she needs to be more realistic, especially as more than one person has complained about him. But it is very very hard for her to accept that her darling could be so calculating. She also tries to share out blame for his behaviour. He is a bit older than 3, but still young enough for her to change it round if only she'd accept it.

have skim read this although have read OP's posts carefully. Here is what I would do if I was the little toe rags mum.

"DS when we go to soft play today, you do NOT hit, punch, scream otherwise we are coming home!"

I would give 1 warning and if it happened again I would apologise to my friends and leave.

No way would I tolerate this behaviour from my child and I wouldnt expect others to appease my parenting or allow my child to get away with it.

I have 2 DC almost 11 and 7 - and I know for a fact that these children who start off like this are the ones whos blame the teachers/other children/the world/school for their rubbish parenting and how nobody understand their child and they just dont know what to do. Well, DO SOMETHING!

rant over... and breathe

OP - dont put up with this childs behaviour. Tell your friend to step up and discipline this child - REMOVE the offender from the fun stuff.

OP I liked your idea about the roleplaying of screaming in his face and teaching him to react by laughing. My DS has "personal space" issues when playing and reacts badly if another child looks at him funny I might try that out with him and see if he gets a bit better!

Op, you behaved impeccably throughout IMO.

I had a similar sitch with best friend's son and ds.

Because his behaviour was so awful, I'd try to support his parents by implying my ds was a bit overly sensitive when their ds attacked him iyswim! It was absurd really but I didn't want confrontation or to make them feel bad. But in the end these parents would joke about their son being a 'boy's boy' and mine being a wuss!

We changed tactic and would tell the boy off in front of his parents if necessary (we saw an awful lot of them so it wasn't odd) as they didn't discipline him, and armed ds with strategies. And we don't see as much of them now!

Thanks for all your replies.

One thing that has stood out from your replies is the "blame" thing with the mother - how mothers like this blame anyone and everything - now I think about it, she does like to blame. When he first started doing it (and still to this day) she blames his nursery, because apparently there is another child there who plays quite rough and he's "learned" it from him. Funnily enough when her son was about 18 months and had his first tantrum about not getting his own way, she said he'd seen the older children at nursery having tantrums and had "learned" to tantrum off them. I thought this was pretty funny at the time because ALL children have strops around this age, whether they see anyone else do it or not!

She is always looking for an alternative reason why things happen that either gets her off the hook for something that might make her look bad, or that makes her child look better or blameless. And she really, really cares what people think.

I agree also about there being a middle ground between hitting back or just taking it and walking away. I just dont know what that middle ground is. I did consider telling him to hit him back if he wanted to, but decided against it, because it would just give her licence to say "they are as bad as each other" which is the thing that has annoyed me the most in all of this - this lumping in to make her child appear "normal", and "the others do it too" and "6 of one, half a dozen of the other" when in fact he child is the only one in our group who has consistently hit, bit, pinched, growled, screamed (in that context) and antagonised.

She's back at work next week which means I will only see her on Fridays once a week at most - and at people's houses which is often better than these bigger play places. If nothing else she's more likely to supervise properly, depending how big the house is and how many rooms there are!

"now I think about it, she does like to blame."

This is what turns my stomach, that she would rather blame your son than take responsibilty. Infact by definition - it's an evil deed.

...and then to manipulate you, so you also blame your son...

Can you practice some indifference when you're around her so as not let her in quite so much?

It's amazing that you have got your DS, young as he is, to walk away, whereas she hasn't even tried to get her child to do something miles less difficult (i.e. simply not to hit). Definite difference in the time and effort you have each put in to raising your child.