To accuse my DD's school of neglect?

[ssflower]

Hi, am a MN virgin so please bear with me! On collecting my DD from school (reception full day) without all the detail, she was extremely distressed and I immediately knew why (very strong vile smell from classroom). On taking her to the toilet and talking with her I realised she had been in her very soiled undergarments from mid-morning. The schools immediate response was one of defense and denial(?) and to cut a very long, ongoing incident short I have complained - am now beginning to have doubts as I am being blocked at all levels and am finding it so hard. Am I over reacting?

schools ARE in loco parentis

katie is correct, teachers act in loco parentis.

yeah but ime teachers don't always manage to realise a child needs a wee/poo or has already. It is expected a child will tell you.

Thats why when ds wet himself in year r I was fuming as he had sat there with his hand up which teacher ignored because he should've been listening. He couldn't hold on. (that and the teacher had a big problem with ds for breathing anyway so think the ignoring was a tactic from her

Im an early yrs practitioner btw and so see it from both sides.

YANBU IF your dd had been like this for hours and not a recent accident as she says.

If your really unhappy with the school I would move her - looking back I wish I had done this with ds after first parents evening and now he's going into year 2 and has a big group of friends I don't want to upset the apple cart and he only has this 1 year left.

Message withdrawn

*katiestar "any teacher who says mopping poo is not her job should perhaps find out outr what being in l;oco parentis actually mean and find out about some of the less savoury aspects of working withg children before deciding on a career in teaching."

I'm afraid that, whatever your personal opinion may be,Advice from the NUT shows that this issue should not fall as an expectation of a teacher's duties at all.

"It is not part of a teacher's professional duties to clean up children. Such a responsiblilty cannot, therefore, be added to a teacher's job description. Quite apart from the fact that such a task is not making good use of a teacher's skills and time, there are practical issues, too. Teachers cannot simply abandon their class to attend to a child who needs this kind of assistance. Members of support staff are better placed to undertake this role and some may have such responsibilities included in their job description.

Although the vast majority of teachers would assist in an emergency situation, as no child should be left in wet or soiled clothing, it is important that there is no expectation that routine and predictable incidents are dealt with by teachers."

It is absolutely appalling that the op's poor dd was left in this state; someone most certainly should have noticed, and it should have been dealt with appropriately. As a teacher, I personally would have no qualms about changing a soiled child, but I don't think that's the issue here - it's that staff at the op's school pretended not to notice.

But you can't decree that teachers sould consider changing children as part of their job, katiestar, because it quite obviously isn't. How can a teacher abandon the other 29 children to deal with one child, or why should they leave the teaching to a teaching assistant? Of course, working in a school as you do, you will know that. (But what do you actually do, katiestar?)

But the NUT is the teachers union ie an aggregate of teachers! of couse they are going to want to push unpleasant jobs out of their own job description! It doesn't make it so though!If support staff are available then of course it is more appropriate for them to assist, but that isn't always posssible.I don't know why you would be abandoning the class, don't infants' classrooms generally have integral toilets?

No.

don't forget that the school govenors are first port of call after the teacher and headteacher as they are the head teacher's immediate line managers. if nothing else it will make you feel like you've visited all avenues. although it may feel like they've pulled rank things will get said to the teacher behind closed doors because heads don't want unhappy parents - it makes their job a night mare. It can be beneficial to ask what the school will do in future instances as this can go further in getting what you want - should you choose to stay - ie for this situation not to happen again plus again will make you feel listened to and less marginalised

"But the NUT is the teachers union ie an aggregate of teachers! of couse they are going to want to push unpleasant jobs out of their own job description! It doesn't make it so though!"

I think you'll find that if the NUT say that it is, then that is the situation as it stands, regardless of what you think teachers should do. That doesn't mean it can't/won't be changed in the future, but that's how it is at the moment.

As for infant classrooms 'generally' having integral toilets, that's a ludicrous statement. As is your follow up, that it isn't always possible for support staff to assist - if it isn't, because they aren't available, then the teacher could not just leave the other 29 to it.

I can't work out why you don't know these kinds of practicalities though, as you work in a school.

isittooearlyforgin The op said that the chair of governors was there too that day.

sorry - didn't see that bit. Asking for a plan to be put in place can help put the onus on them and is an entirely reasonable thing to ask.

Feeny I think you are talking rubbish.Would you not turn your attention to one child if they required essential first aid, or would you ignore them because you had 29 others to deal with? I am not talking about 'leaving 29 other children' any more than you would be if you were say talking to one cuild about their work
In our area virtually all the primary schools are 1960/70s builds ( with flat roofs and white wood panelling around the roof,bay windows in every class room)and all the infants classrooms have toilets off the (tiny) cloakrooms and the classroom door encloses all this.
My own DD1s school is slightly different in that its 300 years old, but the infants classroom has been modified to include toilets and a cloakroom.
When my own children have an accident the teacher (or other adult) would find spare pants and trousers/skirt.The child would be sent to toilet to remove soiled garments ,then teacher would pass them plastic carrier bag to put dirty stuff in.Then return to pass them damp paper towels to wipe themselves with and clean clothes.
I am shocked that you would not be able/willing to do this for one of your pupils

"I am shocked that you would not be able/willing to do this for one of your pupils"

Where did I say that, please? I actually said "I personally would have no qualms about changing a soiled child", if you had bothered to read properly. Where I take issue with you is your - quite wrong - blanket assertion that "any teacher who says mopping poo is not her job should perhaps find out outr what being in l;oco parentis actually mean and find out about some of the less savoury aspects of working withg children before deciding on a career in teaching.", because it can't be added to a job description at present.

I then outlined some basic practicalities which exist in the vast majority of schools which make it difficult, none of which you can answer sensibly.

"Would you not turn your attention to one child if they required essential first aid, or would you ignore them because you had 29 others to deal with?"
No, of course I wouldn't, but that isn't the issue here, so to compare the two is ridiculous. A soiled child is quite different to a medical emergency. And yes, once again, to enter a toilet and deal with a soiled child would obviously mean abandoning the other 29, and for some length of time, too. More appropriate to send for other available support staff in other classes, if available.

Why do people assume the teacher and ta are lying? If the smell was so bad they wouldn't want to hang around in it surely! I am not a neglectful teacher but a child once pooed himself in my lesson. I noticed there was a vague smell around him but to be blunt some children are smelly ( and yes I do follow up concerns about this) it was only after leaving my room and reentering with another class i realised just how bad the smell was and was informed by special needs later that he had in fact pooed. This was a class of 15 and 16 year olds and none of us noticed at the time. I felt dreadful afterwards but can genuinely see how it wasn't noticed even though had I entered the classroom at later point instead of becoming 'acclimatised' I would never have believed it. I can fully see that you are angry but having been on the other side I can also believe the school.

The old style nursery nurses used to see to that now ta s are in place as poorly paid teachers there is nobody who thinks its their job to do these unpleasant but often necessary tasks. if children start school at 4 then this type of thing is inevItable and schools should have the necessary means to deal with it with minimum upset to the child. What a sad and silly world we now live in.

I don't think anyone has said it's not appropriate for support staff to change children, ledkr, in fact just the opposite.

I am fascinated by your avoidance of the question of what you actually do in school, katiestar. Admin, I reckon? Since they work in a school, shouldn't they "find out about some of the less savoury aspects of working withg children before deciding on a career" in a school?

Freenie I was referring to the fact that even if teachers don't think It's their job then there is usually a ta as was in this case but these days ta's are usually tied up with teaching tasks which still leaves a gap for ''care staff'' for want of a better expression.
Looking at the situation simply I would say that my job description does not include every possible senario I could ever encounter but people should use common sense and adaptability

Many thanks for all your comments. I have no problem with whether teacher changed my DD altho i would have expected a call for me to come and do it. My problem is that the immediate response was not one of concern or help but one of defense and denial, a suggestion was made that the smell was that of horse manure on a childs shoe; on discussion with the head apparently the line the school are taking is that there was no smell at all. I have formally complained to head re the staff concerned (NO response in 5 wks); the Chair regarding the head and the vice chair regarding the Chair - so far absolutely nothing - am so frustrated - am now involving, GTC, Ofsted and Dept of Ed - to be honest am not really sure what's next. I have applied for another school but to date am still waiting to hear on availability, whatever happens, i will keep on until i have a satisfactory response. An V !

Forgot to mention that one of the heads comments to me was "why do you send your children here, all you do is complain" - i have complained at one other time and not to this level.

Hi SS flower.

Only just read this thread as not been on Mumsnet for ages. I am a school governor and our school has a policy regarding these things. My DD does have a toliet problem and is a reception child so I was very concerned what would happen.

No school should leave a child in this condition. I would check the policies (which you are quite entitles to view). You have from reading complained to the teacher and head without a satisfactory result and then the Chair and Vice Chair? It must then go as a level 3 complaint to a panel of governors (who have to know nothing of the complaint so they are unbaised). I will say that as a governor I would listen fairly and investigate as governors are critcial friends but must ensure the school is managed correctly.

Have you asked what would happen in the event of a reoccurence of a toilet accident? As I know you are annoyed/angry about what happened (and I would be too), but you can't honestly change the historic event but you can ensure any future incidents are dealt with properly.

This doesn't stop your complaint thought and I would persue to ensure a proper procedure/policy is in place in the future.

Good Luck - I imagine being the holidays you won't hear anything till September.

Thanks MrsPurple, yes we are at a Stage 3 where the head and Chair are concerned. A panel of 3 has been convened to discuss their own complaints policy and we are now waiting for their findings - as you suggest probably in Sept. As for the staff complaint, as we have heard nothing not even an aknowledgement we are now involving other agencies. I know i cant change what happened but i cannot sit back and say/do nothing - sometimes i wish i could! I never for one minute thought that my DD having an accident would lead to all this - shame on all those involved. Just out of interest should any other governors have been made aware of the complaints?

Hi SS

No other governors should have been made aware as the process is/should be:

Teacher
Head
Chair of Governors (level 1)
Vice Chair (level 2)
Panel of 3 governors (level 3)

The panel have to be unbaised (like a jury) so must not know of anything to do with the complaint until they have been convened for the panel.

Please see link www.governornet.co.uk/publishArticle.cfm?contentid=712&topicAreaId=28&pageStart=1&sortOrder=title&se archWhere=all&searchString=complaints%20procedure

Many thanks, i think that gives me another avenue to pursue. Wish i had found MN when this happened - anyway it is so helpful off-loading as my friends/family must be sick of hearing about it - i can't seem to focus on much else

SS don't worry about venting, I know how you feel I have a particularly trying 5 year old and am getting nowhere fast with the NHS route so I need to vent. I've just looked at my last messages and I've not been on mumsnet for 12 months. People on here are all understanding and helpful and they're is always someone to listen and advice as they've probably been through it or got some helpful knowledge.

Keep us all posted as to how things go, as it will also help your sanity. How is your DD by the way, has she shown any emotional problems or not wanting to go to school because of this? Hopefully her age will help her forget.

How did you survive without MN for 12mnths?! Sorry to hear NHS arent helping for your 5yr old - can anywhere else help? My DD seems fine and is very positive about the prospect of new school. We have talked about what happened and i have explained that we feel her teachers didnt look after her and that they should never have left her like that for so long.