Oh my god - massive reaction - could it be Lupine flour??

[IlanaK]

My 9 week old just had a massive reaction to something I ate through my milk. I have had to go dairy, egg, soya and citrus free as he easily reacts to what I eat. I have been trying wheat free too so bought a gluten free pasta. I had it for the first time tonight and when he fed a couple of hours later, he reacted quite violently, threw up (projectile) 3 times and is crying/screaming. The pasta packet says it contains lupine flour. I have never eaten this before so it is very likely the culprit.

I googled it and it definately comes up as an allergen. Has anyone come across this before?

Sorry to hear this sort of thing is still happening, i know how worried you must be

what else did you have with the pasta, including drinks?

Have not come across reaction to lupine flour , but wanted to say that if your LO is still being so ill reacting to seemingly so many things you eat, it might not be that at all but some reflux/other gastro issue. Was it a prem baby? I really think you ought to get some proper medical advice, and hope it all turns out to be something simple , apart from issues re: health of baby, there will be nothing left for you to eat!

Thanks for that. I had it with a homemade bolognaise which I have had countless times. ALso had lentil soup - also eaten many times. Drank water.

He may well have reflux, but from everything I have read, this is made worse by what I eat so not sure what a doctor would do. I don't want him on any medications so still think the best way forward is to find a diet that he can cope with. Generally, he is doing fine now (though still very poessetty/sicky). Last night's reaction was unusual and extreme for him.

9 week old?
what sort of reaction?

As described below - sudden extreme projectile vomit when I stopped to burp him during a feed. This happened 3 times with much screaming and crying.

okay, any other allergy signs...............ezcema, poor weight gain,poor sleep pattern?

what makes you think allergy, rather than colic?

and are you thinking intolerance, or ige?

lupine flour is known to link to peanut allergies, which is normally lGe allergies,/classic, not intolerance.

I wish I could answer those questions, but I feel totally out of my depth with this.

AS to weight gain, I have not had him weighed as I am avoiding health visitors. He was last weighed at 6 week check and was fairly low on the charts. HE spent his first week in SCBU with breathing problems and on IV antibiotics (which I am sure is the cause of all this) so lost a lot of weight then (he was on a drip solely for 2 days before getting any milk). However, he is growing out of his clothes so I know he is gaining weight (he feeds frequently enough!)

The reason I am linking all his symptoms to food rather than just "colic" is that as soon as i cut out dairy, the colic disappeard (he had been screaming between feeds for two weeks prior). Since then, he only seems to have colic symtoms directly after a feed when I have eaten something different. For example, I ate egg after not having it for a while and he became extremely colicy. I cut egg out and all was fine again.

It was after taking him to an osteopath and talking about his refluxy symptoms (though not colicky anymore) she felt he was still reacting to something I was eating. At this point I cut out citrus.

I was then put onto antibiotics for something and within a couple of days, he went back to two days of terrible colic. I was advised by someone that the antibiotics passing through the milk could have stripped his gut again and he was reacting to things I was eating. It was at this point that I cut out nuts, sweeteners (can't be good for anyone!) and wheat all because they seemed the most likely suspects.

Once I was off the antibiotics, he seemed much better, though still very sicky but not colicky.

The reaction last night was unusual and extreme.

In answer to are there other symptoms - he has very rashy skin. No sign of excema yet (but the rest of us all have it).

Is it allergy or intolerance? I have no idea - how do you tell the difference when it is passing through breast milk???

Sorry for so much detail, but you did ask!

Forgot to answer about sleep. He is certainly a poor sleeper, but I did not attribute that to this issue. We co-sleep and he will sleep fine so long as my breast is continually in his mouth. DUring the day, he fights sleep tremendously. I carry him in a sling, but even then it is usually a battle to get him off to sleep.

okay................would reduce the intake of these foods, not fully take out of diet.
its getting to be a pretty long list of food for you to cut out.esp withyout medical advice.
which cant be good for a breastfeeding mother.
yes, stop tea/coffee/chocolate/citrus fruit and other common colic triggers, until child is three months, as this is high colic time.
being sicky is not always a sign of an unhealthy baby, lots of babies do 'posset' handfuls after a feed and grow nicely.

antibiotics do irritate infants guts, but breastmilk does sort this out.

Projectile vomiting with colic can happen with breastfeeding, my flow was really fast, and i have a couple of strong feeders who would throw up after wolfing down a good feed in mins.

My allergic infant had colic, (3 out of 4 of my children had colic) however, the pointer to his allergies was by day 10 dry skin, day 15 ezcema, as time went by poor weight gain, say 3 oz one week and 4-5 oz following week.
Poor sleep pattern, inability to sleep for more than two seperate hours a night, and 10-20 min cat naps during day.

I cant say your infant will not have allergies in the future, but I am pretty confidant that the colic should go within the next few weeks.

As your child seems to be outgrowing his clothes, all is well. Certainly this only would happen if he is breastfeeding well and sleeping the odd good soild block of 4-5 hours sleep at a time. As both are linked.

good luck.

I'm sorry but what would an osteopath know about how your diet could affect your baby?

the antibiotics definitely can affect the baby - dd1 had terrible green, runny poos when I had ABs 3 times for mastitis but she didn't have intolerances/allergies

colic sounds much more likely or reflux - a friend's baby (her 3rd) has just started to respond to medication after a terrible couple of months for the whole family.

4-5 hours sleep? Never, not during the day or at night.

mine never did at that age either

Can't help but feel concerned that you are cutting out all those foods like williamsmummy says can't be good for you, as well as avoiding health visitors and doctors, have you thought about contacting your midwife, mine were really helpful even after the handover to HV.

I think it is very unwise to self diagnose food intolerances/ allergies.

You may be compromisiong the nutritional quality of your milk with all these exclusions and unless you a dietician or nutritionist you dont know what other problems you may be causing.

Unless you are coeliac there is little point in you going wheat free.

If you have concerns about your ds health and allergies go to the health visitor/ gp and ask for your ds to be tested properly.

I think you are being very unwise avoiding the hv and not getting him weighed, as poor weight gain is often an indicator of problems.

My ds had very bad colic especially when I ate certain foods dairy was a real trigger as were some fruits, but this did pass off by about 4 months.

He was also extremely sicky and had projectile vomiting.

I appreciate all your time in answering my questions. HOwever, I feel perfectly able to alter my diet without the help of a HV, midwife or GP. And to be perfectly honest, I doubt any of them is knowledgable on this subject. As a breastfeeding counsellor I am fully aware that the quality of my milk will not suffer if I cut out food groups such as dairy. The human body is a clever thing and will always put all resources towards making milk first. I would have to be extremely malnourished for my milk to suffer in quality.

I am not malnourished. I am still eating meat, fruit, vegetables, grains. Even before having a baby that reacted to my diet, I would have questioned the necessity of the dairy food group in our diets. There is plenty of evidence to show that calcium is better absorbed by the body from other sources.

I also don't understand the references to it being "just colic or reflux". From everything I Have read, both these conditions can be caused by, and most certainly made worse, by what the mother eats. There is ample evidence of that.

As for possetting being normal, I would totally agree. Even in large volumes. Both my other breastfed sons possetted huge amounts until 1 year old. However, there was no discomfort or crying/screaming with it so it was not a worry. With ds3, it is quite clear that on occasion (after eating things) my milk is causing him pain and suffering so surely any mother would want to alleviate this. While projectile vomiting can be a sign of a super fast milk ejection reflex or fast flow, you would generally see a pattern of a baby doing this regularly. Last night was the first time and it was accompanied by much screaming in pain.

Sorry for being so longwinded, but I wanted to explain myself.

I thought I had remembered from prev thread you were BF counsellor - you sould therefore know that avoiding your HV /GP when baby is perhaps not doing as good as he could is not a good idea, if you are as worried as you seem you need help. Would you not tell a patient/client, whatever you call them, to seek medical advise rather than go it alone?

I am also beginning to wonder if there may be a touch of post natal depression in here, if this baby is harder than your others? as you seem rather paranoid

sorry if you find that remark OTT when I don't "know" you, but I have diagnosed SIL and friend "long distance" from relayed conversations and the odd email/letter.

you should also know about what is normal (possetting, colicky pain/wind/crying in a baby who is otherwise well and happy) and what is worrying (regularly throwing up whole feed & generally failing to thrive). Mine had times they ate too much too quickly and were very sick, and times they cried with windy pain, but it did not worry me.All babies are different though, seems this one is just more prone to colic than yr others.

agree with the others - sounds like a normal colicky baby whose colic is worsened by some things you eat. Restricting your diet so severely is bad for you BOTH. YOU will suffer as your body will indeed leech the mineral it needs to provide for your baby (I had probs in pg being hospitalised for hyperemesis, baby was eventually fine and very big, but for the first 4 months I lost weight and was very ill)
surely breast feeding mums are still recommended a pinta a day (or equiv) to protect themselves from osteoporosis?

please please see yr HV/GP as by far the most likely explanation is simple colic so you are worried without reason and making life harder by imposing all these restrictions on yr diet.

Well, that's an interesting opinion. I certainly don't feel depressed in anyway. And while I agree with you that this ds is quite different as a baby than my other two, I don't think that is clouding my judgement.

How is colic normal? By normal I assume you mean lots of babies get it? I agree - but that does not make it normal. There are many cultures out there where babies do not get colic - it is unheard of. SO this says to me that babies were not "designed" to have colic. I think the huge amount of colic in our western society is partly as a result of such high levels of formula use (cows milk protien). "Colic" is characterised by periods of irritability, loud crying and abdominal pain. That abdominal pain is caused by something. And in the case of a bf baby, I believe that something is what the mother is eating. So if I can eleviate colic in my baby by changing what I eat, I think this is appropriate.

I am really suprised by the worry over my diet. I think if you had not read this thread but just looked at what I eat, you would say I eat a really balanced diet. It is only because I have spoken about cutting things out that there is concern. As to the pint of milk a day - no, that is not the recommendation to prevent osteoperosis. Here is a quote from KEllymom: "Breastfeeding protects against osteoporosis. During lactation a mother may experience decreases of bone mineral. A nursing mom's bone mineral density may be reduced in the whole body by 1 to 2 percent while she is still nursing. This is gained back, and bone mineral density may actually increase, when the baby is weaned from the breast. This is not dependent on additional calcium supplementation in the mother's diet"

This thread has gone off onto a bit of a tangent now, but I think these issues are important.

As to what I would say to a mother that called me in my role as a bf counsellor? I would certainly say that they should see their health professional if they are worried. But i would also know that it was up to them to decide if this was necessary. In my case, it is certainly not.

To go back to the original question and confirm what you've been told already - lupine has similar proteins to peanut. It's possible your child could have reacted to it. Are you sure there was no egg in the pasta though?

I share the concern about eliminating lots of foods from your diet but agree with you that "colic" often isn't inevitable and shouldn't just be accepted as "normal". However I'd like to suggest alternatives to excluding everything.

First adding probiotics to your diet will mean your gut flora is restored after antibiotics. That in itself might mean you'd be Ok with goats milk instead of cows or cheese but not milk. If not lactase added to your diet might help. Tablets are 8.49 in Holland & Barrett. Lactase is often in colic remedies.

If you think wheat is a problem try a digestive enzyme like Biocare Glutenzyme Plus. These help digest gluten (and also contain a little lactase).

It does make sense to avoid lupine and peanut but you can easily have a healthy diet without them. If you continue to avoid egg, soya and citrus test again in a month or two.

Thank you tatt. I already take a probiotic daily. I will look into lactase and digestive enzymes. In fact, a friend of mine has used digestive enzymes with her son for years so i will ask her about them.

By the way, there was definately no egg in the pasta.

Thank you very much for the offer. I will talk to my friend about enzymes in general and see what she says first.

What do you think about giving probiotics directly to babies?

I don't know what enzymes are in the Solgar brand, I have used the Biocare personally with a degree of success . There are possibly better, but considerably more expensive, ones at mandimart.co.uk Please note the enzymes available now don't eliminate the problem completely (so not suitable for severe allergy/ coeliacs) but possibly to a level that won't bother your baby.

But I must stress I'm not medically qualified and this is just based on seeing what helps my family/ what I've picked up from friends.

Probiotics have been given to children in clinical trials and protect against the child developing allergies. I don't think a breastfed child whose mother is both using probiotics herself and having a healthy diet should need them but they aren't likely to be harmful. Since there are a lot of allergies in my family I encourage all my relatives to give them to their babies.

just checked the biocare and its soy derived so you might prefer to look at Peptizyde instead. They claim that will help with egg allergy, don't know anyone who has used it to help with anything but gluten and milk.

totally agree with the your opinon on dairy, and that your quality of milk will not be affected. Hopefully you are looking at this as a tempory measure until babies immature gut system can cope.

what you eat does affect a babies tummy, but its still a hit and miss affair, you could remove something that isnt causing a problem, and increase your avoidance list for little reason.
so , just be cautious.

Agree colic is a western thing, certainly third world infants dont get it and are fed weaning mixtures of ground peanuts , and they dont have any peanut allergies.

probiotics have been studied and are of more use before infants are over 3 months, inconclusive later on.
I certainly dont think it would do any harm to try that.

as for allergy (reading your new posts) rashy skin, poor sleep pattern, well theres two points towards allergy.
I would keep a close eye on weight progress, and general skin condition.
If this carries on over the next few months , you will need to consult medical opinon. So document everything, the skin, weight, sleep /wake pattern.

9 weeks is still too young to clearly point to an allergic or intolerant infant.
It could still just be an immature gut system.

It was incredibly difficult for me ,personally to pin point a food I was eating as causing the problem.
Something that didnt occur to me in the early days , as I had had two babies previously, one with colic and one without.
With my allergic child, there was no period at all, that I could pin point to a single food causing the problem.

I wanted to train as a breastfeeding conseller myself before this baby was born and planned to do it when he was older, however his poor health meant that this was out of the question.

during my long battle to get support and correct medical care for my allergic son , i meet a mother who was told to STOP feeding her infant, and indeed this child was totally intolerant and IGE allergic to many foods. The hospital had to make his own formula, and as his gut was so damaged it became a race against time to get him to have any food as he was seriously ill.
So I have an open mind about breast and formula feeding.

As for advice, well the only one I can think of so far, is the one to make sure that infant is propped up during feeding as much as possible, and that for sleep, however brief, he should be propped up.
On guts with intolerance allergies, being laid flat on back is extremly painful.

We discovered a few of my sons food allergies after he was 12 months old, we knew he was dog and cat allergic.
When visiting grandparents , if a dog or cat hair landed on him , a large single hive would rise under it.

at 18 months , we got the full list, only to add more as he grew older.

the list was,

peanut
egg
tree nuts
all beans
hay fever
tree pollen
cat
dog
dustmite

As it was a mixture of food and environment causing him pain, it was impossible for me on my own to sort out his problems.
In fact , the co-sleeping, the breastfeeding, and my dusty house, the teddies I put at the end of his moses basket during the day, .............everything I did was not helping him.
With out that medical care, I wouldnt have learnt how to make him healthy and well.

I do hope that your infant has just a more immature gut system that normal, and by the magic 3 months settles down to a more normal early life.
its not easy this allergy life.

good luck , and best wishes , crossing my fingers for you.