Men should not be able to adopt

[clarinsgirl]

Obviously related to recent tragic events but something I’ve been thinking about for a while. In England and Wales 99% of all those convicted of child sexual offences are men (ONS). 91% of all defendants in child abuse cases are men (ONS). So start point for adoption is men alone cannot adopt.

Of course I realise it’s not that simple but really interested to hear what others think.

We’re going round in circles, but, again, female adopters and foster carers have been imprisoned for the murders of the children in their care. To be honest, I will be amazed if adoption in its current format exists by 2050, at the latest. Having been through the process and systemically abused for many years, plus witnessing the harms caused to my AD1 by her perinatal and early life experiences, plus the catastrophic failures of the so-called support systems, I have come to the conclusion that adoption is a harmful practice.

That adoptee was abused by the person who was supposed to keep her safe. Of course they have an extremely negative view of adoption. Her adopted mother was abusive and controlling and made her life miserable.
She also talked about rebelling against the lies she'd been told. It's standard practice now to be honest with your children about their past and in many cases ongoing contact is encouraged (if safe to do so).
This girl was failed on so many counts but this is absolutely NOT a typical example of adoption in the UK.
The bit about consent is nonsensical as no child is able to consent to the circumstances they find themselves in - adopted or not. They are forced to rely on the adults around them to keep them safe. If those adults are unable or unwilling to do that then that is what needs to be addressed. A child can't make an informed, impartial decision on what is best for their physical and mental health.
What would scrapping adoption mean? Children kept in unsafe environments or in permanent foster care ?
How can that possibly be better?
What about all the happy, successful adopted children? Are their experiences not valid?

Although I should add that according to The Promise in Scotland, the child's views are pertinent to all discussions and decisions.

The 'lies' they're talking about is 'these strangers are our parents', nothing to do with 'not being honest about their past'.

Adoptees are expected to accept their loss and act as though these strangers are our parents. They aren’t. I’d go so far as to say it’s natural, even commendable, to rebel against lies.

My children know I'm not their biological parent. They know all about their birth parents and foster carers and still maintain relationships where possible. There are no 'lies'.
Should I tell them no I'm not your parent? What message does that give? That I'll never accept them as my own?

Yes, we won’t prevent all harm, and women abuse too. But imagine if we could tackle to 91% of defendants and 99% of those convicted by developing strategies to target male abusers.

I responded to part of your post, about adoptees being lied to and their resulting behaviour making sense in that concept.

I can see how some people could well believe that but equally, my daughter would disagree. She is adamant that being adopted is the best thing that ever happened to her. She is forever buying us "family" ornaments, mugs with family pictures on them etc. I arranged direct contact with her birth family (for her sister, my other daughter) and she won't have anything to do with them.

I'm not disagreeing that some afoptees are deeply unhappy, have horrible adoptive parents. I'm just saying it's anecdotal and doesn't apply to everyone.

But the rate of harm caused by male adoptive parents in the UK is infinitesimally small. The majority of abuse happens in step-family situations. Will you ban them too?

True. As I said earlier in this thread, adoption is unique in that there is a natural intervention point. Generally there is no such intervention in biological or step parenting unless there is criminal history. You are of course completely correct that adoption does not account for the majority of child abuse, but that shouldn’t mean that we don’t do all we can to protect adopted children from harm. I take your point completely - adoption is the tip of the iceberg but I still think if we have an opportunity to intervene against the 99% of perpetrators in a small percentage of overall cases then we should still do it.

The bit about consent is nonsensical as no child is able to consent to the circumstances they find themselves in - adopted or not.

Its not nonsensical. Yes you're correct on the basis that children can't consent. Where you seem to go off in being not so right is by being blasé about bio children can't either. A biological child does not lose all of their bio family members legally for their natural life or start or restart their lives in a different family. The trauma attached to that loss is more than the vast majority of biological children will have to contend with.

The bio child grows up with family history/cultural stories and practices and genetic mirroring etc,. The adoptee does not get that connection. The adoptee has no recompose in adulthood to annul that adoption order.

Adult adoptees should have the right and freedom to choose to re-establish their original identity which was previously removed from them without consent.

They are forced to rely on the adults around them to keep them safe. If those adults are unable or unwilling to do that then that is what needs to be addressed.

Absolutely, don't think anybody disputes that.

A child can't make an informed, impartial decision on what is best for their physical and mental health.

No. However, that's maybe, probably an added argument for more supports and resources are made available for the adoptee we know that adoption can cause many adoptee's to have feelings of confusion, shame, anger etc,.

What would scrapping adoption mean? Children kept in unsafe environments or in permanent foster care ?

Nobody is advocating for a child to stay in an unsafe situation. Kinship care should be promoted more. For Example: baby Preston was only available to adopt because his grandmother, who has full custody of his older sibling, had breast cancer. It was her wish that once recovered she would take over custody. She wanted Preston to stay at his foster family till she was well again. If adoption has to stay then it needs radical reform and money pumped in. Radical reform has to be adoptee focused first.

How can that possibly be betterr
What about all the happy, successful adopted children? Are their experiences not valid?

All experiences from adoptee's are valid. Don't think anybody is saying differently. There is a growing understanding that adoption isn't just a one time 'act' it's a life long.

A person can be a 'successful' adopted person and still have an understanding that adoption is something that was done to them, for them and that's a paradox for many adoptees. Not one person should talk about what adoption means to the adoptee unless they are the adoptee. We/you/me shouldn't do that.

I'm both an adoptee and an adopter. I truly believe that my adoption was the absolute best thing that could have happened to me. I would not have survived childhood with my birth family. I had amazing foster carers but I longed for a real family and normal life. My upbringing might not have been ideal but I was never lied to and I see my parents as my true parents - not those who I am tied to by biology.
I get very emotionally involved in these sorts of posts because I feel it belittles MY lived experience. I would hope that my children feel the same.
Had I not had a successful upbringing myself then I would probably have never gone on to adopt but I did and I am so proud of my family and all they have achieved in life despite all their adverse childhood experiences. It's definitely not been a smooth ride but how dare anyone tell me that I can't advocate for them or be their real mum!!!

The bio child grows up with family history/cultural stories and practices and genetic mirroring etc,. The adoptee does not get that connection. The adoptee has no recompose in adulthood to annul that adoption order.
Adult adoptees should have the right and freedom to choose to re-establish their original identity which was previously removed from them without consent.

The adoption order is a piece of paper for an adult adoptee. They are perfectly able to reject their adoptive family, go and live with their birth family, change their name. I suspect that the number if people who do this isn't huge. Reunions often don't work out.

I adopted siblings who were able to see each other every day for mirroring etc. They might have got more mirroring with their birth family but then again they would probably be dead.

Also, kinship care is absolutely the first possible option sought where I live.

There is a growing understanding that adoption isn't just a one time 'act' it's a life long.

It's not a "growing understanding" - how insanely patronising. You don't think we adopters realise this???

There is also a great emphasis on culture, background, religion etc when raising an adopted child. I'm surprised you don't know this.
However it is not always in the child's best interest and can cause further upset as it can reinforce the feeling that they don't belong in their new family. Many children who have physical memories of abuse don't really want reminding of their past or to be constantly told that they part of a culture which they don't want to be.
I have a good friend who is physically very different to her (adopted) family and stood out as looking 'foreign' which caused all sorts of bullying and trauma for her growing up. She wasn't remotely interested in finding out what her actual ethnicity was (birth mother wouldn't say) but she was acutely aware that other people had an issue with it. She had a relationship with her birth mother while she was still living but was so adamant that adoption was the best thing that could have happened to her. She had no desire to restore her identity or whatever you are on about. Nor do I. And I'm sure there are thousand just like us.
We don't need others speaking on out behalf of what we feel or what we need!

I'm both an adoptee and an adopter. I truly believe that my adoption was the absolute best thing that could have happened to me. I would not have survived childhood with my birth family. I had amazing foster carers but I longed for a real family and normal life. My upbringing might not have been ideal but I was never lied to and I see my parents as my true parents - not those who I am tied to by biology.

That's great you feel that way and had a fantastic childhood. That's not the story for other adoptees.

I get very emotionally involved in these sorts of posts because I feel it belittles MY lived experience. I would hope that my children feel the same.

I fail to see why someone having a different understanding of adoption belittles YOUR lived in experience. That's not the point of this discussion and nobody is belittling your experience. Talking about the issues facing many adoptees that doesn't match your experience isn't belittling anything. That's a fairly visceral reaction. I'm not responsible for you reacting emotionally my comments.

Had I not had a successful upbringing myself then I would probably have never gone on to adopt but I did and I am so proud of my family and all they have achieved in life despite all their adverse childhood experiences. It's definitely not been a smooth ride but how dare anyone tell me that I can't advocate for them or be their real mum!!!

I haven't said you cannot advocate for your adopted children.

What I've said is this:
Not one person should talk about what adoption means to the adoptee unless they are the adoptee. We/you/me shouldn't do that.
This in no way me suggesting you cannot advocate for your children. Though saying that your adopted children's view's or understanding of the experience of being an adopted person may be the similar or different to yours. You can only speak of your experience. Which you have.

Never said my upbringing was fantastic - believe me it wasn't plain sailing. It's an emotional topic therefore I react emotionally. Please don't patronise me.
Unless YOU are adopted or have adopted your children you have very little real understanding of the emotions, the baggage, the invasive nature of the whole thing.
Yes many adoptions have gone wrong and many children have had horrible experiences. Nobody denies this.
I'm not really sure what your actual point is on this thread.

I read something recently that touched a chord with me.

Adoption is not a happy-ever-after ending.

Instead, it’s a complicated middle.

This really resonated for me.

I would recommend to re-read your old comments; I imagine you're an adult and know the difference between a different opinion said politely, a different opinion said in a rude way and between engaging with people in a constructive manner vs not doing that.

I'm not telling you to go away, rather to engage differently. If you want an actual conversation, make coherent points and don't assume the worst of people.

No splitting hairs, just telling it how it is. Care leaver or not, if you're not taking proper care of your child, it will show in assessments and it will end up in your child being removed from your care. You have no choice in being a person who has been in care, but you do have a choice in birthing a child and continuing the cycle of abuse/neglect/drugs and alcohol. Being dishonest with oneself and pretending that's not the case will help no one, least of all yourself.

I am an adoptee and an adoptive grandmother, so can see many sides of adoption. I had wonderful adoptive parents and a happy childhood. Of course it is complicated, being adopted. Back in the 1950s it was the thing not to know anything about birth family. I always knew I was adopted but it left a lot of mystery swirling. Having said that, I’m very glad I was adopted. I think the alternative (staying with birth mother) would have been very difficult. With my adopted grandchild, they were removed at birth from birth mother. She was given every opportunity, offered loads of support but turned it all down. She prioritised drugs over her baby’s welfare. The whole both family on both sides were assessed for kinship care but none were suitable. Children’s services tried really hard for the child and birth family but it didn’t work out. Now my grandchild is thriving, happy and doing well in life. I am very proud of them and they are very much loved by all of us. Yes, they know their birth story, no lies. Sadly, adoption was the only option for them and it is working out. Who knows what the future will bring. In grandchild’s case and in mine, adoption had worked. However, I see many cases where it hasn’t and that is heartbreaking. There should be many more resources for families and for young care leavers. I wish the powers that be would wake up and address the issues properly.

At the risk of stirring the hornet’s nest here, this is how fostering is being promoted in the Greater Manchester region, so the mayoral home of our upcoming prime minister. The bar is low. HOME is a Greater Manchester fostering agency.

I know the cost of housing now must make it so much harder to find foster carers who have a spare room, but that sounds like it could risk attracting people who are more interested in a new house than the children.

Agreed. I am shocked. And not much shocks me now in the world of adoption and fostering. The whole system is absolutely screwed.

Do you think they have so little common sense they don't realise, or that they just don't care as they're so desperate for foster carers? I live in Greater Manchester and I've seen billboards up for years advertising for foster carers but nothing like that before. Not a single mention of children in the advert...

My take as an adopter of nearly 20 years…the system is totally broken. Adopters are angry that they are having to parent society’s most vulnerable children - the ones legally severed from their birth families when the bar is so high for removal - without any real or meaningful support. Foster carers are angry that they do not have any employment rights and are treated extremely badly when it comes to false allegations. False allegations are rife in the world of fostering and adoption. FASD is massive in fostered and adopted children but there is no clear pathway for an NHS diagnosis; there is literally one clinic, in Surrey, with one consultant who specialises in diagnosing FASD. Our children are instead diagnosed with autism and ADHD. False allegations and ‘confabulation’ is a big symptom of FASD. Unless birth mothers, and fathers, have to undergo court-ordered hair strand tests, the system relies on self declaration of alcohol consumption. We have not even got onto the subject of epigenetics and genetics! There are extremely high rates of heritability for both autism and ADHD. It took me three years, as a PHD-level person, to secure an EHCP for my AD1 who is significantly disabled due to her in utero experiences as well as being multiply neurodivergent. Imagine trying to do that if you are an addict and/ or living in sub-optimal housing, in a domestic abuse situation? These children are being failed. Catastrophically.

Josh MacAlister, the children’s minister, does not have a clue. He is a selfie-obsessed career politician, who shuts down all debate by blocking posters who call him out for his lack of insight (I don’t post on his socials so I have no experience of this). Josh MacAlistet has committed to creating an extra 10,000 fostering homes in the country. He will lose face as and when this does not happen. This is why agencies like HOME are getting away with this absolute bullshit. As you say, everyone has lost sight of the children in all of this. But support the families and there will not be such a great need.

Fuck me, who thought that was a good idea - there’s so much wrong with this it’s unreal.

I keep saying, they have this "Anyone Can Adopt" strategy, and this agency is just taking that idea and running with it and applying it to fostering too. It is why they target imo vulnerable people with a completely unrealistic message - that adoption and fostering are no big deal, easily accessible and anyone can do it.

I adopted 26 years ago and have seen a load of gov initiatives to increase adoption rates in that time. Martin Nairey was made Adoption Tsar with a view to especially increasing numbers of people willing to take on big family groups - he soon changed his tune when he spoke to adopters and actually came out and said thst people should just take one child! Michael Gove, who was adopted himself, wanted what he had experienced for children in care and was responsible for the adoption support fund but also for stream lining things ie hurrying people through the process.

But meanwhile adopters have kept trying to explain the truth to people but they prefer the happy ever after stories from the adoption industry.