Legal fiction

[Kite1]

What is legal fiction ? How is it used in adoption ? And what effect does is have on adoptees throughout thier lives ?

I have googled this and your questions in the Adoption Hearing thread.

You are talking about Corruption in relation to decisions for children to be Adopted.

The decision to issue a Placement Order and then subsequently an Adoption Order is made by a Judge. Adoption is done as an absolute last resort after giving birth family many opportunities.

This board is almost solely used by Adopters. There are an incredibly small number of birth parents and adoptees who very occasionally comment here.

You may find it better to post your questions in places online that a lot of Adoptees frequent.

I hope this helps.

Hi thanks for your reply although it does not answer the questions asked, though I do believe it highlights the corruption of the system used I was not asking that question, I asked on that thread as I thought as they are going through the court process they should know how legal fiction effects the process and is used and how it would effect the adoptee and themselves going forward ,thank you for your advise I will also post in places where there are other adoptees who may have better knowledge of this subject although I do think it would be more likely adopters would be more knowledgeable on this subject as they are adults aware of the court process during adoption and children are not aware of the court processes or what is done when they are to young to comprehend what is being done, I am trying to gain a better comprehension of the effect it has for all involved so think any input from all is good

It sounds like you have knowledge of what it means, so it might be worthwhile for you to share your view so others can comment and respond?

Hi there all,
I think the concept that ‘legal fiction’ is the same as judicial corruption is a common misconception- it is an academic legal term.
Before I go further though, legal fiction is a concept solely or almost entirely solely used in common law affairs. It is not something used as a concept in family law, and therefore has little relationship to adoption vis-a-vis ‘in the court room’.
A legal fiction is something which is not factually true from an academically absolutionist perspective- for example, in inheritance law, there is something called ‘the doctrine of survival’. If me and my brother both die in a car accident, it may be impossible to determine the order of our deaths and so, who inherits what. The doctrine of survival states that legally, I will be considered to have died first, because I am eldest. This is a ‘legal fiction’- it is not necessarily true in an absolute sense, but is true in a practical sense eg who inherits.

Adoption is therefore also described as a ‘legal fiction’- it severs the legal relationship between birth parents and children, making them ‘legal strangers’ when of course, they are not. This is another example of something which is not necessarily true in an absolute sense, but is true in a practical sense eg who cares for the child.

I feel that, from the spirit of your post, you may be referring to judicial corruption and not legal fiction. Judicial corruption would be an ‘in the courtroom’ issue e.g. the assertion (presumably by a birth relative) that the evidence presented was false. This is a separate issue to legal fiction.

I hope this helps you :)

@WittyUsername123
thank you for that explanation, I had to google it as I’d never heard of it.

@Kite1 Adopters in England aren’t really involved in court processes. I never set foot in a courtroom until our celebration hearing, which isnt a legal process.
From your writing I think you probably know what theses terms mean. If you are trying to start a discussion about an issue maybe you could be more direct about it.
What is your interest - are you an adopted adult?

OP has mentioned on other threads she is an adoptee, who had a poor experience.

Adopters are not responsible for the system. Adopters are parents who have chosen to parent children in need of parents, children who can be challenging to parent, and do their best within an imperfect system.

I would suggest if you're raging at the system, then raging at adopters is the wrong place. Adopters often also rage at the system.

We're ordinary parents, doing our best for our children. And we're not going to stop doing that.

I'm sorry you had a poor experience of the system and adoption.

100% this.

I think I know who the OP is.

Adopters have absolutely nothing to do with children being Removed, Placement Orders or Adoption Orders.

It definitely is not the right thing to rage about the decision making process with Adopters. We have nothing to do with it.

@Ted27 No worries!

A genuine debate around the legal fiction of adoption might be whether an adult adoptee should be able, if they choose, to reinstate their legal relationship with their birth parents. Like a two-tier system in which the person could legally have two sets of parents.

This might be an option some adoptees may like to exist, although it may be complicated from a legal perspective.

@WittyUsername123 I have been thinking about the issue of reinstating the legal relationship between adopted adults and their birth parents and came up with the following issues:
(1) reinstating birth name - currently would need to do via deed poll but is possible
(2) identifying next of kin - legally you can name anyone of the age of 18 as your next of kin but it does become an issue if you haven't done it and can't because you're unconscious, for example. At this point adopted family would automatically be considered if you're not married / have adult children
(3) inheritance- adopted children have no automatic claim on the estate of a deceased birth relative and vice versa. This can be rectified by writing a will in England/Wales but the laws of inheritance are slightly different in Scotland so you'd have to seek legal advice if you wanted to leave your estate equally between your birth children if one has been adopted but not the rest as birth children cannot be completely disinherited.
(4) nationality - assuming that birth and adopted parents have the same nationality on their passport the first could be a non issue but it is currently a massive issue in places like the USA for international adoptions with cases of adults being deported to their country of birth because their nationality didn't automatically change to American on adoption and no one seemed to realise this until it was too late.
(5) passports- in the U.K. you have to present your birth/adoption certificate as part of the application process and one of your parents' full birth certificates or something equivalent to prove their status as a British citizen at the time you were born. The adoption certificate replaces the birth one so presumably you could not use information related to your birth parents instead of your adopted ones. All this only applies for your first passport, the renewal process is different unless you're also seeking to change your name

I'm not sure how complicated the process would have to be, I think you could follow many of the rules set in place for divorces. I think you'd have to prove/verify the relationship of those involved to avoid the situation of adult adoption for inheritance reasons, etc. You'd also need another register to run alongside the adoption register because I don't think you could simply reinstate the original birth certificate and void the adoption one, you'd need to keep the link between the various identities for the purposes of background checks otherwise it would be a way to get around things like DBS checks, being a registered sex offender, etc.

But just as you cannot adopt an adult , I don't see how you can 'unadopt' an adult.

My son is 19, I no longer have any parental or legal responsibility towards him. And also no rights with regard to him. He has no legal obligations towards me either.
I know there are some differences in Scotland with regard to inheritance which may or may not be relevant. But essentially the legal rights, obligations and responsibilities around adoption cease when the child achieves adulthood.

My responsibility to my son now is moral, because I love him and would not dream of treating him any different than I would a birth child.
But its up to him now what he calls himself, who he regards as his mum and dad and the relationship he chooses to have or not have with his birth family

@Ted27 I totally agree- I was just trying to think about what a good-faith interpretation of OPs original question about the impact of the ‘legal fiction’ of adoption.

@WittyUsername123

I expect @Kite1 won't be back as they don't really want a discussion

I expect @Kite1 will be back at some point. When their anger tips over, and they decide to shoot it at the safe people of adopters again. Probably under a name change. I don't think they'll be back to the thread, as I doubt we'll give them what they want, or need, sadly for them. I hope they find what they need from somewhere. I don't think they want a discussion on the finer points of the principle of "legal fiction". Not really.

Hi thank you for all your replies and time you've taken to respond it's helpful to have others to talk to about this issue and gain others views amd knowledge, it's been very upsetting and confusing for me as someone who was adopted as a child ,I find some of the posts here personally attacking me and making assumptions about me disappointing but not surprising, I am angry at some of the injustices I have experienced that I think is justified, I was as a child abused and let down by my birth mother then my adoptive parents where also abusive and seemingly the system allows adoptive parents to get away with abuse they don't allow birth parents to as I should have been protected from them when they became abusive and was not I believe due to saving face, I also experienced abuse in the care system so yes I do have justified anger at those who failed in thier duty to protect me but no rage I am quite a timid person by nature maybe but my adoptive father was very quick to anger and physically act so that may have something to do with it aswell ,
I will try to respond more to each comment when I can ,again thank you for taking time to reply

@Kite1 you have been badly failed and let down by various patents and The System. You are angry. We here know you are angry. I am so sorry for what has happened.

I hope that you can see that all us Adopters here love our children fiercely and are fighting to get the help they need. Includes fighting with The System.

There are Adopters trying to create change in The System. Is there a specific group(s) of Adoptees that are trying to create change too ? I mean a collective group who are working together and lobbying various Bodies involved in the social care element, legal element etc.

I know my child is going to have a lot of questions about The System when he is older.

@Kite1

everyone here understands that you have been very badly failed by both your birth family and by your adoptive family. That should not have happened to you. Just as it should not have happened to the children and young people who are in our care.
I have always been aware that I am not just mum to my son, but the person who can advocate for him, fight for him, support him in coming to terms with his history and finding his way in the world, despite his past experiences.
As I look at my nearly 19 year old, I honestly believe I have done that, as I believe my wider adopter community friends here and elsewhere, are doing and have done for their children.
I an sorry that you did not get that support and love that you should have done. But I, and my fellow adopters here cannot change that.
I also believe you could probably get a lot of support here if you actually asked for it, instead of trying to pick debates about legal processes in which we as adopters play no part.
I really do wish you well but I feel you arent getting what you really need from this

Thank you for kind words ,I believe there are groups of people adopted as children that have formed groups and are challenging the way the system treats adoptive children and advocating for them it's good to know there are adoptive parents doing the same ,I think most people adopted as children will have lots of questions its only natural it comes down to if they feel safe to ask those questions, I in no way would expect anyone here to be able to change what has happend to me I find that a bit of a bizarre statement although maybe we'll intended I'm not sure why that was assumed , I also am not looking to get needs met here ,I appreciate you as adopters do not play a part in the development of legal processes but do think you have a duty to be fully informed of the process and how it works to make sure what is done to and for children is done with integrity and honesty otherwise its inevitable down the line it will backfire and cause harm and loss to all involved

Sorry I haven't been able to reply more personally on here I don't have alot time , one thing that I'd like to share here as I think it would be helpful for adopters to have another perspective on this and someone made the statement in these comments about treating thier adoptive children the same as birth children this is something my adoptive mother would say repeatedly (she definitely did not treat me the same anyway ) and it took until much later for me to realise essentially she was saying she treated me a child who had been seriously neglected and abused had suffered devastating loss at such a young age the same as her children who experienced none of those things and I thought is that right or fair ,what is your thoughts on this perspective?

Hi @Kite1

I believe that all children need to be treated in order to meet their needs.

My AS7 is legally my son. I bring him up, feed, clothe him and make all decisions. I parent him exactly how HE needs it e.g in terms of his Sensory issues, potential ADHD/ASD etc.

I hear, see, feel everything I can about his feelings and respond to them.

He has an adoptive mum and a birth mum. We are both very important and we talk about her and the rest of birth family a lot.

The fact that he has been through so much makes me a very strong and fierce mama. No one will hurt by son or treat him unkindky. If they do they are out of our lives.

My son is not a consolation prize or any less of a son because I didnt give birth to him. He is my son... but also he is someone else's son too.

I will support him with everything he needs and wants to do. I do not own him. If he wants to make contact with birth family I will be right by his side.

There are a few Adopters here with birth and adopted children. They have written on here previously about their love and treatment of all the children.

I am so so sorry that you have been through so much. I will re-iterate that us Adopters here have the well being of our children at the forefront of our minds.

X

@Kite1 I'm sorry for your struggles.

I again say directing your anger at adopters in general is not going to be helpful to you.

You are hurt. We did not hurt you.

@Kite1 so many of us here have written the same thing several times. I know this includes me.

Directing your hurt at Adopters is not going to help you, us or our children.

Have you had a Professional to speak to. A therapist can be very helpful. You say you believe there are Adoptees who are trying to invoke changes to the system. Join them...

but do think you have a duty to be fully informed of the process and how it works to make sure what is done to and for children is done with integrity

Respectfully I think it’s a nonsense to think adopters don’t know about the process our children have been through to get to this stage. I’d also suggest the process of your adoption will be quite different to more recent adoption practices.

As a social worker of many years standing not only do I have an understanding of the system, I’ve initiated it for many children and supported them through it. The vast majority of social workers, and others involved in that process, act with the utmost integrity while operating in a very resource strapped system.

Your situation sounds awful, and I am sorry for you - I don’t know why the abuse your adoptive parents perpetrated against you wasn’t acted upon. Suggesting adopters are acting in bad faith, participating in a legal fiction or are ignorant of the system is unfair and won’t change your experience.

What do you hope to gain from this discussion?

she treated me a child who had been seriously neglected and abused had suffered devastating loss at such a young age the same as her children who experienced none of those things and I thought is that right or fair ,what is your thoughts on this perspective?

I know at one time prevailing thought was that removing a child from an adverse environment was all that was needed for them to grow healthily. That a secure, loving environment would be enough to counter their early experiences.

We now have a much better understanding of the life long impact of adversity and trauma, the need for therapeutic processes and supports. We understand child development in a much better way and have a clearer understanding of the impact of trauma on development. We also recognise that removal of children from their family of origin is also traumatic for children even if that removal happens at birth.

When we know better, we do better. So adoptive parents have baby more resources available to them that simply wouldn’t have been available to your parents at the time of your adoption. They would have parented you in the way they parented their birth children with no knowledge that your needs were different because at that time professionals didn’t understand those needs particularly well much less lay people.

Hi Chocapple
Thank you for your reply it's good to hear you are a fighter for your son and recognise his needs I wasn't diognosed with adhd until adulthood so that diognosis young is very important, its good he will have understanding that will help him navigate life much better ,it is also good you encourage keeping the birth family alive in his life that will help him alot having your support in that and that he can speak without fear to you about his birth family I remember growing up not being able to speak about those things it's very lonely I'm glad he won't have to feel like that ,from the way you write and what you have said I do believe you are a good parent to your son thank you for your time taken to reply to me here, I don't have a therapist I cannot afford one all my money and time goes to my children maybe when they are older I will beable to access therapy it is hard because I am recently going through my records also ,anyway I hope your son grows up happy and healthy it sounds he has a good chance at that with you

Hi ohmustyou
Thank you for your sympathy and time taken to reply ,I don't feel I am directing my anger at you sorry if that's your interpretation I was asking for a perspective on something to gain more awareness of others views on the subject ,and again I'm aware I am hurt from my experiences Thank you ,no where have I said anyone here is responsible for that I'm unsure why you would assume me to think that it seems strange to me to make such assumptions