Legal fiction

[Kite1]

What is legal fiction ? How is it used in adoption ? And what effect does is have on adoptees throughout thier lives ?

Hi Jellycatspyjamas
Thanks for your replies I don't think it's nonsense to think adopters aren't fully informed of the court processes when cleary most of them don't k ow what legal fiction is or how it is used ,despite what you say about knowledge of thr effect trauma only being recently known about its clear with a bit of research that the knowledge has been known for alot longer there just wasn't the care to put support in place as long as the children suffered in silence and didn't kick up a fuss no one cared ,and from the records I'm going through at the moment they definitely had more understanding than you are trying to portray they just didn't do anything ,my adoptive parents where paid an adoption allowance did any of that money go to getting me therapy no it went on them I was a money making resource for years ,the cestui que vie is another interesting thing to research ,how are the stock markets at the moment in the socail work world ?😅

@Kite1

There is a world of difference between not being familiar with legal terms and understanding and acknowledging that my son has another family, and supporting him in his identity.
I am one of the few adopters who had direct contact with birth family, I have fought hard to maintain that despite the inability of his dad to do likewise.
Now my son is an adult we talk a lot about what future relationships with birth family might look like- but it's his decision.
Every adopter I know bends over backwards to maintain the contact agreements put in place, ofte to their own detreiment -just look at the number of posts there are here about letterbox.

I'd be interested if you could expand or clarify your comments about stock markets in the social work world

That's great you have kept the relationship open but I know many adopters do not and often once they gain parental rights they stop contact ,and many adoptees grow up alienated from siblings and other family members, I have a brother also adopted never met him don't know if he's alive dead anything its wrong and I know many adoptees have the same problems although I hope this is improving now it's very slow progress despite the knowledge having been there for years ,I'm not going to elaborate on the comments about the stock market here as it likley will provoke they will know what I mean though some research into the cestui que vie Act and legal fiction/strawman if your America will enlighten you

@Kite1

I have looked it up.

I would still be preferable if you could just come out with what you want to say in plain English.
As I have said my son is 18, so I have many adopter friends with young people of the same age.
Without exception we have all supported our children with appropriate contact with birth family, and where it is safe to do so have facilitated meetings in the teen years. A number are now picking up the pieces as their young adults are exposed to dangerous behaviour in the birth family

I have said what I wanted to say and wrote it pretty clearly I'm not sure what it is you want ,it's good to hear you and your adopter friends have allowed your children to have relationships with their families hopefully things have changed and the next generations of children who where adopted will have better lives and stories to tell and not have to live with so many unanswered questions, did you and your adopter friends have meet ups and let the adopted children form friendships growing up ? I've wondered if there are groups for children adopted to meet up now days as I think it would help with adoptees feeling of belonging to have others to relate to who share that experience

@Kite1

its not at all clear to me what you are trying to achieve with this, but to answer your last questions
yes it is quite normal for children and young people to meet other adoptees.
most agencies host regular events for adoptees, there are many support groups available. Many adopters organise their own events, meet ups and holidays.
For a number of years we have been on holiday with adopter friends - can be up to 12 families with 20+ adoptees ranging from toddlers to 28 year olds.

Finally it is not a question of ‘allowing’ them to have relationships with birth familiy. It is their right to have information and where it is safe to do so those relationships are facilitated.

Thats great to know some children are getting that experience, I didn't meet any other adopted children as a child and was not taken to any groups with other adopted children this is why I asked as I think it would of been helpful it's good to know It does happen for children now ,and I agree it certainly is a child's right to have relationships with their families I say allowed because ultimately adopters hold the power over that with children being unable to stand up for thier rights at a young age it is wether they are allowed to have that right respected that lays in adopters hands as with my adoptive parents they did not respect that right and I had no contact with family and I know other adoptees that had similar experience it is also good to know there are children having that right respected, as far as what I am trying to achieve maybe just some more comprehension of adopters perspective and awareness and how adoption has changed for children if at anytime you don't want to reply to my questions just say so or don't reply ,I do appreciate the time you've taken to reply though and have learnt more from this thread

@Kite1 I just wanted to echo what @Ted27 has said. There are organisational regional meet ups all over the UK where Adopters meet up. Local Authorities and Voluntary Adoption Agencies hold various monthly webinars, Support groups for Adopters and Adoptees. There are Adopters who find each other on SM/word of mouth and are in WhatsApp groups, FB groups and meet up. Connecting with other Adopters and the children playing with each other, taking to each other happens regularly over the UK.

I have connected with 1000's of Adopters and prospective adopters on various SM and in real life. Everyone is doing their very best for their children. They are facilitating what contact they can with their children's siblings. They are talking about birth parents. Sorting out therapuetic interventions and help in school - many people are on their knees with trying to get the help their children need.

Prospective Adopters are given very comprehensive information about why a child was Removed from birth family and why they need to be Adopted.

You were Adopted years ago. There are numerous Facebook groups or other groups for Adoptees that you can join to speak about your experiences. There are therapists who can help on the NHS. You don't need to pay for them.

@Kite1

I am so saddened by your experience you report here, and what I say next is said with absolute sympathy.

Looking up legal terms on the internet is only going to cause you pain and confusion. It will not help you understand your story.

I think you are perhaps mixing up UK and USA legal terms with sociology metaphors. I’ve already tried to give you a comprehensive explanation of what legal fiction means, strawman arguments are a totally different thing, and are generally not a true legal term. It is a term you would use when critiquing someone’s argument by interpreting it in bad faith. An example of a strawman argument:

Me: I adopted my children to create a family where they are safe.

Them: So your saying their birth parents are evil? That’s wrong!

It is a strawman argument because the other person has created a ‘straw man’ (an extreme misinterpretation of my argument) and then ‘knocked it down’, thus ‘winning’ the argument.

I am quite confused by your use of the cestui que vie act (I guess you mean 1666?) and I’m not going to go into it because what your referring to is mainly US law now and is mainly used in complex land ownership disputes.

If you believe you should not have been removed from the care of your birth family, then you must be in so much pain and I am so sorry. Please, do seek out help through the NHS pathways or other groups of adopters.

*this should say groups of adoptees

Thank you for your reply I should of been removed from my mum and not returned so many times to be further damaged I'm not saying I should not have been removed if what is in the reports is true but from my own experience socail workers routinely lie in the reports and record many inaccurate opinions so it's impossible for me to know the true version of events and my birth mother is dead so her voice cannot be heard ,my view is that the process of removal is separate from the reasons a child is removed even if the removal is justified the process to achieve that being corrupt will still be a miscarriage of justice if you have to lie to achieve something integrity is lost and also their are other options such as guardianship that could be used so a child is not subjected to having thier identity complete deleted its akin to civil death yet not having committed a crime and in contract law children are to young to consent or contract so until they reach an age of competency adoption should not be carried out ,I did not want to be adopted and have my name changed and it caused life long issues my wishes where not respected and it saddens me many children have experienced this ,one thing particularly when adopters are celebrating while the child is suffering the loss of thier whole family and identity is the most insensitive thing i see and so confusing for children there are so many things but I know ile likley be met with hostility if I try to talk to much about these things but as your children may grow up and come across the infomation I have maybe they could be better supported because it is the most upsetting and alienating thing to go through especially alone, I will seek out adoptee groups for support I already have one ,I don't use the NHS anymore since before covid I've not had anything to do with them I faced years of stigma trying to access services anyway so give up with them completely another benefit of being an adoptee with trauma you get stigmatised and ostrsised from services although looking back at covid maybe it was a blessing in disguise

@Kite1

You really need to understand that things have moved on.
It's very rare that children's names are changed now, only unless there is a security risk or if they have a very 'out there" name. My son still has his birth surname in his legal name.
Adopted children today are given information on a drip feed basis, being given age appropriate information. I don't know any adopted child or young person that grew up in ignorance.
Yes I did celebrate my son's legal adoption - because he wanted to. He was 9 and desperate for his day in court. We mark the occasion every year.
I also know adoptive families were the children are conflicted, they didn't have celebration hearings and don't mark anniversaries.
I understand that you are in pain, I understand that you feel you may be educating us in some way, but adopters today really do have access to a lot of training and support on these issues.
And just like any other parent we are child led and respond to the needs of our individual children

@Kite1 I am also an adult adoptee. This board is very much for adoptive parents and Mumsnet do not wish to have a section for adult adoptees. I do occasionally post on here but with some trepidation.

As an adoptee it can be hard to have your voice heard and to be almost infantilised. Even therapists need to be registered with Ofsted to offer support to adult adoptees! I think our views should be listened to, we are the product of living with the lifelong trauma of adoption after all.

Hi vjg13 thank you for commenting I caught on pretty quick this was mostly a space dominated by adopters at first I thought it would be a mix off all those affected by adoption, I agree it is very hard to have our voice heard wich is strange as you would think if people wanted what's best for the children they would want to hear from the children who had the experience and are old enough now to speak about how it effected them but as many of us have probably come to realise many times it's not about the children it's about people meeting their own selfish needs using a child to do so ,the infantalisation is mad I think it's a control mechanism I grew up with it think it's a common thing, researching and learning about narcarsists opened my eyes alot of the behaviour associated with that is what I see going on it saddens me alot but I have hope change is here we all have our day 💚

@Kite1

Personally I feel quite offended by the insinuation that the adopters are nothing but narcissists.
I haven't seen anyone here express anything but sympathy for your past experiences.
You say you want to try and help change things but refuse to accept that despite what everyone here says, that much has changed.
None of us would assert that things are perfect, but much has improved.
I object to the suggestion that we do not listen to adoptees. I've been listening to my son every day for the last 11 years. Anything and everything I have done is a response to his needs. He is now an adult, I am still here, still listening, still supporting, guided by him.
I don't need familiarity with a legal term to know and understand that adoption severs the the legal link to the birth family. Again I live with the reality of that every day.
I still have no clue what a piece of legislation from 1666 has to do with modern day adoption.
It feels like you are trying to expose us or catch us out in some way.
I'm going to leave this thread now.

I’m sorry if you haven’t found what you wanted here @Kite1 - this is a parenting board so likely to skew towards parents.

I am truly sorry about the dishonesty in your reports. I am not one to defend the system, and am fighting to uncover the abuse my own children suffered in FC very very recently.

Dishonest reporting and issues with the system are not legal fiction or strawman arguments- it is misconduct and fraud. It’s extremely painful for my son to not have a full and honest account of his early childhood, and your feelings of anger have reinforced my choice to be as open and clear with him as I possibly can.

I am also sorry to hear you feel you can’t use the NHS for support- maybe try a charity? I am aware it can be very difficult to access therapy for adoptees and this is also an issue that I strongly object to.

I’m not going to address any of the more personal insults in PP because they must be coming from a real place of pain. I have tried hard to answer your question about legal fiction in my first post and I hope it’s helpful.

Hi Ted27
I'm not saying that all adopters are narcasistic but have spoken to alot of adoptees who after learning about narcasism realised it related to what they experienced growing up with thier adoptive parents I also experienced it so I'm not saying all are but there is an issue there and it needs looking at because what's better supply for a narcarsist than vunrable children that can be a lifetime supply source and they are very good at charming others so slip through the vetting process ,and the result of narcasistic abuse is awful for adults raised in a healthy environment even more so for children already damaged, I appreciate the time people have taken here to respond and their kind words ,I am speaking from my experience and observation and research I'm not attacking anyone personally and I myself have been personally attacked here when I first commented ,I am happy to hear you have listened to your son and he felt safe to talk with you I appreciate things have changed a bit but I don't think it has changed enough considering the amount of knowledge that's been available but I guess we will have to wait for the next generation of adoptees to be able to speak out before we know truly if things have changed, the cestui que vie trust funds is what I was talking about in that comment it would take alot more research into it than a quick Google for you to comprehend what I meant and how it relates thank you for your input here all the best to you and your family

@Kite1 I am an adoptee (was adopted many, many years ago) and want to say that, as much as I recognise your pain and distress and am so sorry this has happened to you, you do not speak for me. I resent that you brand adoptive parents as narcissistic and selfish. Mine were neither - they were loving, caring parents who did their very best to give me a stable, safe and happy upbringing. The other posters have, I think been kind and supportive to you and done their best to be empathetic whilst explaining how things are in adoption these days.

I am also an adoptive grandmother and can see how very different things are now. I see my daughter and son in law working hard to help their child to understand their life story. I see how lovingly they support their little one and help them to deal with the damage done by the birth family. Believe me, it was awful. And independently recorded and documented too, so there were no lies by social workers here.

As an adoptee, I have my identity and am proud of who I am - mix of upbringing and heritage. And that is fine with me. We all wish that adoption wasn’t necessary but sadly, it sometimes is. We are all doing out very best for our children and grandchildren and we love them proudly and unconditionally.

I hope you can find some peace of mind OP, I really do.

Before I take a step back from this thread: ‘cestui que vie trust funds’ is a scam term used for a range of fraudulent purposes and I would caution any vulnerable person reading this thread that if someone contacts you saying you have a ‘cestui que vie trust fund’ then this is a scam, often perpetuated against people with a complex family history. Please be aware.

Hi WittyUsername123 I have found this helpful and informative I hope others have gained something from it aswell ,thank you for your sympathy it is awful that recording is done so fraudulently if I hadn't looked at my records I would never have believed how bad it is its so important for children to have a truthful and unbiased account of thier history , sorry to hear your children experienced abuse in FC its awful thry protect themselves and the abusers in my records they redacted where it said about me reporting my FC for getting drunk regularly and leaving me to care for the foster baby placed there and then defended her by saying to remember her previous good record obv because she'd got away with it up until then I was placed there because of my adopted dad hitting me that is also recorded wrong to protect him they said in the record I requested to go into care and no mention of him being abusive when they turned up to take me into care with no previous interaction with me about what was happening it was like being punished for being abused I'd also not long dealt with the death of my birth mum and they took me to see her in the chapel of rest awful years sorry went bit of track, I would agree being as open and honest as possible about what you know is the best thing you can do for your son maybe help him access his records when he's old enough is good to have support through that I done it alone is very hard like that ,it is wrong therapy is hard to access for adoptees I didn't realise about them having to be registered with ofsted either wich seems strange will have to look into that and why that might be I've made a decision not to try and access therapy anymore and cope in other ways it's very unlikely I'd ever be offered the therapy I need and the few sessions offered just does more harm than good ,sorry if you've felt attacked by my comments I don't mean them personally I think I have a better comprehension of legal fiction thank you I still need more knowledge on the implications of it I think ,thank you for the time you've taken to reply here I hope your son can find peace with understanding his history