Natural consequence for being generally oppositional and not bloody listening?!?!

[Jannt86]

So I have a 33MO adopted as a baby. She's a delight. Funny and clever and full of herself. I realise that what I'm about to report probably applies to most 2YO but I'll be honest it's driving me nuts so I just want pointers really. She rarely tantrums but she's oppositional to literally everything and it drives me nuts and I just don't know how to discipline it. She can be very coopperative and helpful when she wants to be but if she decides she doesn't want to play ball then we've had it. The majority of the time when we ask her to do something it's met with complete ignorance or a flat out 'no' and the trouble is it might sound pathetic but I just don't know where to go from there. I'm not gonna lie I often just end up being less than therapeutic which then makes me feel even more helpless and guilty. It's really draining though when she makes everything, even things she actually wants to do, impossible. Eg she makes it as difficult as she possibly can for us to go to the park even though she loves it there. The problem is I just can't come up with natural consequences for this behaviour. I've tried saying ' we won't have time to go to the park then and then not taking her and explaining it's now too late... she doesn't give a shit. And this is the things that I know deep down she wants so it's impossible with the things she doesn't really want. It might only sound quite trivial but it's really dragging me down. I know she's only young but I just keep thinking ahead and thinking she could really easily become a school refuser for example and I feel like there's nothing I can do about it. I hope I don't sound really neurotic but I just don't know how to handle this behaviour. Thanks

'we won't have time to go to the park then and then not taking her and explaining it's now too late... she doesn't give a shit to the best of my knowledge and understanding a child develops some sort of sense of time at around 3 so it isn't that she doesn't give shit, it is more that she hasn't got a clue what you are talking about. It is quite possibly this which is making her oppositional and angry. Natural or unnatural consequences for this sort of thing is not appropriate for a 2 year old, not really appropriate until the child is much older. Children of this age do not have the developmental maturity to understand.

If you get Penelope Leach's "Your baby and child 0 - 5" the author explains exactly what is happening in the child's mind and that makes it a million times easier to communicate with the child in the way you need to, plus to have realistic expectations, plus the author gives lots of ideas about how to handle things and how to play with and manage the child - this is research based and adopters have also recommended it.

If you look at ahaparenting there are pages dedicated to how to look after 2 year olds along the same lines, again research based. It explains how natural consequences work.

If you talk to her nursery they will have ideas and strategies too.

I think oppositional behaviour at this age which isn't to do with something which is obvious like tiredness hunger illness is quite likely going to be communication, that she needs more tlc or that something else is wrong. The natural state of a 2 year old is wanting to learn, curious, etc and using persuasion to get things done works well.

Where does the idea that natural consequences should be used with toddlers come from?

OP

These pages have lots of links with relevant info, research based, written by a clinical psych, very compatible with therapeutic parenting ideals,the second one refers to consequences:

www.ahaparenting.com/Ages-stages/toddlers/discipline-managing-toddler

www.ahaparenting.com/parenting-tools/Discipline

Jannt86 I must confess the twos are a distant memory! My birth daughter is now 16 and my adopted son did not arrive until 3.

I may be totally wrong here but one thing I notice with my adopted son (now 10) is he often tries to scupper things! He loves family time with a game and sweets but may pick a fight with sibling (verbal only) minutes before we play! It's like he wants to create, or even recreate, chaos.

In your shoes I would make it as easy as possible to get dd out if the house and where you want to go.

If warning and countdowns (we are going in 5 minutes ) helps then use them. But if not you don't need to say what you are doing until the shoes are on. Or you are out if the house.

Incentavise her with a trip to the supermarket on the way for an apple she gets to pick herself or a small treat or healthy drink etc. Whatever works to get her out of the house with the least fuss.

I am sure you have tried this but maybe some things work better than others.

Maybe what you buy is just part of regular shopping but she gets to choose it! My kids used to love smelling the fabric softener and choosing the one we got.

It's also important to remember your child may smirk or smile or look like she doesn't care, it doesn't mean she really feels that way. Maybe she has gotten into some difficult patterns of behaviour. Try not to take it personally.

And lots of praise when she gets things right. If she can handle praise. Always genuine but just a good way of saying how well she does when she does manage to control her anger or temper or whatever or does manage to get things done well.

I sometimes try the praise as a kind of 'you must be very proud of yourself, you did that (whatever) so well. " Rather than just good girl/boy or well done.

I'd also recommend 'How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk' a fab book - not specific to adoption but excellent.

I'll preface this saying I have no experience with adopted children , but I do work with children and a lot of them have suffered trauma, have SEN, social and emotional difficulties , ODD, attachment disorders etc.

I would say first of all pick your battles. It sounds so daft when you say it, but a lot of parents /educators get so hung up on a billion things children simply must do. As long as it's not harming them , let them have some leeway and have a few clear and non negotiable "musts".

Second ,I might be teaching you how to suck eggs but have you tried closed choices. Like in the park example.. "do you want to go to the park now or later?" , "do you want to wear your wellies or trainers to the park?" . Basically the park is a given, but she has choices over how/when she gets there. Always try to keep it to two choices(three the most) and they must be choices you are happy with. Sometimes she might throw you a curveball and say "sandals" or whatever. If it's suitable, just roll with it.
With this give her constant warning so 30 minutes left, 15 minutes, 5 minutes ,1 minute. Or use a now and then approach. Now we'll do some colouring, then we'll get ready to go to the park. So they always know what's coming and they're ready for it.

Try and join in with the tasks you ask her to do. Make it a "team" activity "let's go get out shoes", "let's see what pasta you want for dinner " , "let's tidy up together ".

Adding "thank you" after asking her to do something can sometimes help, but I've only used it with older children . So like " please put your shoes away. Thank you".

As for natural consequences , that's harder for things where you rely on "missing out" for them to comply. Their attention span is too limited and they're too easily distracted to realise that right now they're missing out on something they enjoy.

Praise,praise ,praise and lots of attention when she does something right. Be specific so instead of "good girl" try "oh you were so quick getting ready", "you brushed your teeth so well", "thank you for listening/holding my hand straight away" etc.

You might already know/be doing all of this or maybe it's not suitable for an adopted child in which case I do apologise.

Two is a tricky age for anyone, and it's hard being an adopter because you'll often get the answer 'all children do that'. But there's something about it that's making you post here, so I'd suggest it may be more difficult than 'all children do that'. I found a SW dismissive the first time I tried to raise the aggression issues we were having with DC about two years old, unfortunately it was two years later, and injuries, and we got listened to and help. If you have a supportive SW who gets it, then asking for support early is my recommendation.

'Natural consequences' are only a small part of therapeutic parenting, are you doing all the PLACE/PACE whatever stuff as well? Has that thrown any light on what's going on? Is she self-sabotaging the park trip, because she feels she doesn't deserve fun things? How articulate is she? In what way does she make it difficult to go to the park? Sitting down and not moving? Or refusing coat/shoes etc? Could you take her to the park without coat etc, you may find she'll put it on when cold! To feel safe, she needs to know where the boundaries are, and that you are in charge. Does she have a visual timetable? If you and the timetable say it's park time, it's park time. She needs the security of that. How is she controlling whether it's park time, or not? She's only two, it's probably too stressful to have the responsibility of deciding whether it's park time, and if you're not going due to her actions, then she is deciding, not you.

There's a time to be child led in activities, and there's a time to take the burden of controlling everything from them, as it can be a huge strain for them, not feeling safe enough to let mum or dad be in charge.

percypetulant good advice to get help early.

We had Theraplay for our boy at 5. A very good specific kind of play therapy.

Theraplay is very good, but you're right, Italian that you have to ask for it specifically by name.

Just to jump on your excellent advice @percypetulant my LO will refuse coat etc and refuse to get into pushchair to go to the park. It's too far to walk really especially when he also refuses shoes... Short of literally catching and man-handling him I'm running short of ideas :(

My son (now 6) was very like this around 3/4. He does have some additional needs and I would now describe him as very demand avoidant, esp when anxious. I'm not suggesting this is the case for your DD but some of the same ideas might help! I used lots of PDA strategies (Google PDA society) - things like making it a race to put shoes on first, or saying 'your shoes are by the door - let me know when you're ready to go to the park and we'll put them on'. Anything which removes the direct demand coming from so she has less to oppose.

Thanks all. Really good advice above but gosh it's making me realise how silly I'm being I don't in my heart of hearts think there's anything 'wrong' as such and I suspect it's all well within the rhelm of a typical 2YO. My dh and I have taken a step back and realised that we're probably just expecting too much of her and are trying to be mindful of that and we're going to just pick our battles a bit more. That started this am as I'm feeling rubbish and she didn't want to get dressed so it's a morning of her watching Peppa Pig butt naked ...

Your LO is just expressing herself, simply because she can, it’s really not personal. My LO has been like this for the last year, she is nearly 4. Choose your battles, if it’s not important I let it go, but always talk about it once she is calm or finished her strop 🤨 I know it’s hard my BC from 2 was really hard work, his tantrums could last sooo long, which was easy at home, but not when we were out, we laugh about it with him now, as he remembers many incidents, I have to say he was hard work until about age 8, he is now a financial analyst with his own home, and a wife. It didn’t define him, he was well behaved at school, I never held grudges with him, if he ruined a day out, there was always another day, I never let him go to bed upset, always gave lots of cuddles and love, he says now when we have spoken about it, that he just couldn’t help himself. Parenting is hard, BC or AC, maybe try to remember that regardless of us, or genetics, they are all unique little individuals, trying to walk their own path, and the most important part for them is that no matter how bumpy the path is, we are right there next to them holding there hand.

Their

Two is a tricky age for anyone, and it's hard being an adopter because you'll often get the answer 'all children do that'. But there's something about it that's making you post here, so I'd suggest it may be more difficult than 'all children do that'

The explanations in the links I gave said that for 2 year olds defiance is normal, it is part of the child starting to assert themselves as individuals, and so dealing with that with consequences isn't the way to go, but I agree with the above and really it applies to all dc not just adopted dc. There is the defiance or pushing boundaries which is developmentally normal, which is trying and a PITA but is normal. And then there is the defiance which is more of a "fight to the death" defiance which indicates that something is wrong, and it is going to be a sliding scale. For me it is a wake up call that I missed a trick with dc and I pay more attention. If you look up ODD (it is worth it just to get a comparison) it is often attributed to a relationship problem and the therapy is based on that.

In relation to school refusal and so on, if you have a look at the links you can piece together the various aspects of parenting needed. Refusal might be to do with the child not having coping skills, not have resilience, serious ODD behaviours, etc - all of which can be avoided without professional input if you read up on the developmental info, but obviously the help is there too.

So, in summary, after that meandering post, your follow up post sounds about right!

@user1497873278 lovely post!

@user1479136681 we have french links, and you would laugh at how they do it - no nonsense - if it is no more than 2 year old normal defiance, the shoes go on and into pram and off they go before the child has a chance to open their mouths! It was a long time ago for me but I think I used distraction - something interesting in the hands while I fast as lightning put on the things, and they knew what I was up to and accepted it for whatever reason. I remember also talking it out, if we had time, but that worked only because my dc loved a negotiation.

@user1479136681 If you've tried everything, e.g. 'forgetting' where shoes go, and trying to put them on her ears, to make her laugh and say 'on feet, silly!', giving a choice of footwear (who cares if it's flip flops in December), then what happens if you leave the house, carrying the shoes, and she can walk? If you're on the pavement, I bet she'll want to wear your new 'earings' (I have fixed sandals on my ears before, pretending to be confused as to where they should go). The PLACE stuff- PLAYFUL comes first. If things are deteriorating, try playful, and keep being playful, then if stuck, use natural consequences- won't wear shoes, gets cold feet. Won't sit in pushchair, has to walk (with option of pushchair when ready.)

I'm afraid, I won't engage with Sassygromit, except to reiterate my opinion (as a birth and adoptive parent) that adoptive and birth parenting is different, and that I don't think it's fair on adopters asking for advice if non-adopters offer advice without stating they are non-adopters.

I enjoy doing the play stuff and LO does too... Until it comes time to actually put them on lol! He doesn't like wearing shoes anyway. Next too I'll try going out without them... Wish me luck 🤞

My mum reminded me today that I refused point blank to wear a coat for ages, she said I'd be clearly freezing and still couldn't be persuaded so she'd just carry it.

Thanks sassygromit, so much pressure to be a good mum, I have made many mistakes, and still learning as I go with my LO. You are right I forgot about distraction, it’s been my best friend throughout the years.

Eta choice of footwear he has some very "girly" pink sandals with unicorns on which I bought in summer because all the "boy" ones were sold out. He loves the noise they make and wears them constantly! So I'm going to try them as well! Rather looking forward to the looks we'll get at the park

Percypetulent, I didn’t realise there were rules as to qualifying people to comment. I’m sure sassygromit has explained the reasons as to why she has a valid input.( not that she should have too) surely the more personal input the better, and the more shared experiences, the more likely we all are of finding parts of other peoples lives that we can relate too, and very often help us.

adoptive and birth parenting is different this is too simplistic, but I have gone over it all before on the "non adoptors" thread so won't go over it again.

*adopter not adoptor

User6681, that reminds me of my son wanting a pram when he was 3, the looks I got, it was 20 plus years ago, one lady on a bus ride home from buying it, told me be careful dear or he’ll turn out gay 😆 thankfully some things have changed

I leave a lot of battles until the last minute with my 4 year old. Don't want to put shoes/coat on to go outside in winter? I don't let it become an issue. As soon as she's outside she'll put them on because it's cold and wet. At some point she will make the link to put them on before we go out but at the moment when the house is warm and dry she can't yet make the link to put them on to go outside where it's cold and wet.

I also use alarms on my phone when we go out. When the alarm goes off it's time to leave. It means we can play together and both be sad when the alarm goes off and I can do lots of empathy. I also have drink cartons and small packets of sweets in the car boot which we can have at the end of an outing and she has a lollipop when we take the dogs. My OH says bribery but I say sucking and chewing are soothing activities.

There is no magic wand, just do what works. Some things I've found helpful:

1. Give them choice and responsibility- but not too much. I let mine chose between two outfits from that age (if they got dressed nicely) but I still dress my 7YO when she's worried because she needs that reassurance that she's looked after. It's really important to keep up the nurturing stuff, even past the age where they might typically need it.

1. The natural consequence is that you ignore the bad behaviour in a way that means they don't get what they want- so she might be sat around naked, but not watching telly.

1. Give them time. If she refuses to get dressed- ignore, distract and then assume she's doing it and offer to help 5 minutes later. When she gets a bit older, give an instruction then walk off, then 2 minutes later say you will check it's done in a moment.

1. Keep consequences short and simple e.g. 'Please get dressed so we can go to the park'. OK, if you don't want to we won't go to the park. Don't over explain, you are the parent.

1. What user said about not holding a grudge. Remember to see your child as the age they are. They can often appear to process complex ideas while still being little sociopaths ruled entirely by their emotions. Don't hold her childishness and neediness against her. (Sounds easy, but trust me- at some point you will want to throttle her).

Percypetulent, I didn’t realise there were rules as to qualifying people to comment.

There are wildly varied levels of experience and expertise on here and we are stronger for it, though I think it does no harm to highlight where you might lack experience (that reminds me, OP, I'm posting from the PoV of being adopted and having two adopted kids).

There are specific challenges which are more prevalent amongst adopted children and it's easy to see things as just normal childhood behaviour when they might be signs of things to come and it does no harm to just draw back and reinforce PACE type parenting style.