Natural consequence for being generally oppositional and not bloody listening?!?!

[Jannt86]

So I have a 33MO adopted as a baby. She's a delight. Funny and clever and full of herself. I realise that what I'm about to report probably applies to most 2YO but I'll be honest it's driving me nuts so I just want pointers really. She rarely tantrums but she's oppositional to literally everything and it drives me nuts and I just don't know how to discipline it. She can be very coopperative and helpful when she wants to be but if she decides she doesn't want to play ball then we've had it. The majority of the time when we ask her to do something it's met with complete ignorance or a flat out 'no' and the trouble is it might sound pathetic but I just don't know where to go from there. I'm not gonna lie I often just end up being less than therapeutic which then makes me feel even more helpless and guilty. It's really draining though when she makes everything, even things she actually wants to do, impossible. Eg she makes it as difficult as she possibly can for us to go to the park even though she loves it there. The problem is I just can't come up with natural consequences for this behaviour. I've tried saying ' we won't have time to go to the park then and then not taking her and explaining it's now too late... she doesn't give a shit. And this is the things that I know deep down she wants so it's impossible with the things she doesn't really want. It might only sound quite trivial but it's really dragging me down. I know she's only young but I just keep thinking ahead and thinking she could really easily become a school refuser for example and I feel like there's nothing I can do about it. I hope I don't sound really neurotic but I just don't know how to handle this behaviour. Thanks

That started this am as I'm feeling rubbish and she didn't want to get dressed so it's a morning of her watching Peppa Pig butt naked

That may do her (and you) no harm whatsoever. It really doesn’t hurt then to win every now and again, my two know the difference between things I’ll negotiate on and things that I won’t.

Wearing clothes, wearing weather appropriate clothes is up for grabs, but their choice of clothes might limit what we can do that day (watching tv in pants is fine, but we can’t go to the beach for example).

I also think that the more you accept your child as a person in their own right with wants, wishes and views of their own the more you’ll come and go with them. My two are 7 and 9, and most days we’ll do a bit of planning for the day so there’s a mix of what needs to happen and what they have planned for the day. We also do things like plan meals together so everyone gets something they like at some point.

It might be worth starting to use visual timetables with her so she can see the shape of the day, maybe having things that she would like to do that she can put on the day plan. She still might not do it, but starting to involve her helps open up communication. We do a lot of now/next through the day too.

But mostly, if you don’t need to pick the battle, don’t.

Also to say at that age rewards, bribes and sticker charts are way more effective than “natural” consequences because toddlers are just becoming aware of a world outside of themselves so not going to the park is no biggie (but cutting lunch into squares instead of triangles is the end of the world). She’ll also be trying to figure out where her limits are, so holding firm the boundaries you need to while flexing the stuff that matters less helps her develop a more flexible mindset which is so crucial for developing resilience.

I had a nightmare with my son yesterday (29 months). He’s incredibly defiant and controlling. The controlling element comes from him feeling anxious/scared and wanting to be in charge. It’s very difficult as I look for logical reasons why he’s behaving how he is and there aren’t any. I ask him what’s wrong and doesn’t know. I didn’t manage to therapeutically parent or keep it light and got very cross (I yelled yesterday as I told him I was taking a few minutes to myself and he pretended he needed the potty as he couldn’t stand me not giving him my full attention).

I like Sassygromit’s advice. Regardless of where my son’s behavior comes from (because I often don’t know until after the event and I’ve had time to think about it) I tend to try to help him in the same way (I love Aha parent, think it’s really good and the advice on there works for us when I’m calm enough to utilize it!). I’m having a tough time - I’m a single parent, it’s been eight months without a break from him and there’s no light at the end of the tunnel because of the lockdowns (even if I could send him to nursery I don’t think I would, if I get sick with covid there’s nobody who would realistically help me as who is going to volunteer to look after a child who may pass it to them?). It’s hard hard graft but the advice from these boards and knowing I’m not completely alone in trying to decipher what is terrible twos and what is attachment and what is trauma related behaviours helps a bit!

@mahrezzy

I had a nightmare with my son yesterday (29 months). He’s incredibly defiant and controlling. The controlling element comes from him feeling anxious/scared and wanting to be in charge. It’s very difficult as I look for logical reasons why he’s behaving how he is and there aren’t any. I ask him what’s wrong and doesn’t know. I didn’t manage to therapeutically parent or keep it light and got very cross (I yelled yesterday as I told him I was taking a few minutes to myself and he pretended he needed the potty as he couldn’t stand me not giving him my full attention).

I like Sassygromit’s advice. Regardless of where my son’s behavior comes from (because I often don’t know until after the event and I’ve had time to think about it) I tend to try to help him in the same way (I love Aha parent, think it’s really good and the advice on there works for us when I’m calm enough to utilize it!). I’m having a tough time - I’m a single parent, it’s been eight months without a break from him and there’s no light at the end of the tunnel because of the lockdowns (even if I could send him to nursery I don’t think I would, if I get sick with covid there’s nobody who would realistically help me as who is going to volunteer to look after a child who may pass it to them?). It’s hard hard graft but the advice from these boards and knowing I’m not completely alone in trying to decipher what is terrible twos and what is attachment and what is trauma related behaviours helps a bit!

You're being too hard on yourself. No one is the perfect parent or deals with things in an ideal way all the time. Not even parents with good natured ,easy going, sleep well children.

Sometimes you mess up, apologise, try your best not to do it again and move on.

Remember nothing you do will work 100% of the time and he's too little now to rationalise his behaviour to himself,much less explain it to you.

Give him choices when possible and praise the behaviour you want to see ,especially if it's displayed unprompted.

I am, I know. A lot of it is still attachment building - pushing me away and then getting close and then pushing me away again to see what happens. It’s tiring. I’m tired. I have PMT. I’m trying to stop eating chocolate and drinking. I miss my family and my friends and my life. We’ve not seen anyone properly since before Christmas as we were isolating blah blah blah. Despite that we’re doing remarkably well. And I know that the silver lining to losing my shit is the repair afterwards.

Sorry for hijacking the thread! (We’re having a good day today. He’s watching Paw Patrol and I’ve managed to do some exercise during his nap! WINNING)

Jannt86 that is a good update, I am glad you are feeling better.

@user1497873278 " I didn’t realise there were rules as to qualifying people to comment."

I never said there were. I said "adoptive and birth parenting is different, and that I don't think it's fair on adopters asking for advice if non-adopters offer advice without stating they are non-adopters." Which is my opinion.

I'm glad you're feeling better, OP.

It’s very difficult as I look for logical reasons why he’s behaving how he is and there aren’t any.

There are logical reasons, they just aren’t in the here and now - it makes perfect sense that he’d want to control every part of his environment because everything changed for him, he had no say in that and no control. The testing out (push/pull) behaviour is so logical but it’s so very tiring, especially doing it alone.

We all do the best we can, sometimes we get it wrong, some days go better than others. My two had a very hard day yesterday followed by an easy day today - swings and roundabouts.

@mahrezzy bless you. I think the heart of this for me tbh is that we're finding lockdown very stressful for many reasons. I know we're not the only ones but it's so exhausting and lonely. There's just no easy way out right now but we just have to keep going and be kind to ourselves and each other.

I think therapeutic parenting and attachment are great foundations but it's important to remember that they're not a purist science and it's not black or white. You're not just 'attached or not attached'. It's fluid. No child/parent will be 100% attached to each other 100% of the time even if you're a literal saint. I have moments with my LG where we are so connected and nothing else matters in that moment but me and her and there'll be others where I have to remove myself from her presence lol. I think the key is having enough consistency with those positive moments and trying to repair the not so good moments that the child grows up emotionally secure with a good self image and feeling able to turn to you for any support that they need. It took me a while to accept as well that sometimes my child just doesn't want physical or emotional connection right now. I'm quite a tactile person so I sometimes felt like rejection but it doesn't necessarily mean that. None of us will always feel like that kindof contact and we need downtime from such stimulation and it doesn't mean that we don't feel connected to peoplr and it doesn't mean your child isn't attached well to you. My daughter sometimes clings to me like a limpet. Others she doesn't want me anywhere near her. The teller though is that she has no problem at all looking to me or her dad for comfort if she's distressed and for reaasurance in unsettling situations.

@Jellycatspyjamas

It’s very difficult as I look for logical reasons why he’s behaving how he is and there aren’t any.

There are logical reasons, they just aren’t in the here and now - it makes perfect sense that he’d want to control every part of his environment because everything changed for him, he had no say in that and no control. The testing out (push/pull) behaviour is so logical but it’s so very tiring, especially doing it alone.

We all do the best we can, sometimes we get it wrong, some days go better than others. My two had a very hard day yesterday followed by an easy day today - swings and roundabouts.

Yes, I suppose I mean logical reasons in the here and now / triggers. He suddenly turns and there’s no pattern or reason why that I can see (I’ve been keeping a diary to try to figure it put). It’s very wearing. We co sleep (it’s the only way I can sleep through the night most nights) but last night he woke me every hour to demand I hug him, even when I was. Not sure what that was about!

My son’s days are my hard days as I haven’t learned how not to get sucked into his bad mood... I try hard but it’s such an intense one on one relationship that it’s hard not to!

My son’s days are my hard days as I haven’t learned how not to get sucked into his bad mood

Again zi might be teaching you how to suck eggs and I'm not an adoptive parent.

Just remember it's not personal. It really really isn't. Their behaviour is communicated their own issues,past trauma,insecurities. It is not a reflection of who you are or how he sees you.

He's too young to fully comprehend what he needs and why so he just reacts. Just like with the hugs. He needs to know he's safe,that he's loved,that you're not going anywhere. He just knows to ask for hugs, and even when you're giving them it doesn't fully fulfil that need , because that takes time and it's more than just hugs.

[quote Jannt86]@mahrezzy bless you. I think the heart of this for me tbh is that we're finding lockdown very stressful for many reasons. I know we're not the only ones but it's so exhausting and lonely. There's just no easy way out right now but we just have to keep going and be kind to ourselves and each other.

I think therapeutic parenting and attachment are great foundations but it's important to remember that they're not a purist science and it's not black or white. You're not just 'attached or not attached'. It's fluid. No child/parent will be 100% attached to each other 100% of the time even if you're a literal saint. I have moments with my LG where we are so connected and nothing else matters in that moment but me and her and there'll be others where I have to remove myself from her presence lol. I think the key is having enough consistency with those positive moments and trying to repair the not so good moments that the child grows up emotionally secure with a good self image and feeling able to turn to you for any support that they need. It took me a while to accept as well that sometimes my child just doesn't want physical or emotional connection right now. I'm quite a tactile person so I sometimes felt like rejection but it doesn't necessarily mean that. None of us will always feel like that kindof contact and we need downtime from such stimulation and it doesn't mean that we don't feel connected to peoplr and it doesn't mean your child isn't attached well to you. My daughter sometimes clings to me like a limpet. Others she doesn't want me anywhere near her. The teller though is that she has no problem at all looking to me or her dad for comfort if she's distressed and for reaasurance in unsettling situations.[/quote]
Yes you’re right - lockdown has made it so hard hasn’t it.

I find it amusing when new adopters say “we’re attached now” after a few weeks of placement. I know it takes years and years and years and it’s ongoing and fluid. Part of our attachment building pattern is him pushing me away and sabotaging and destroying before slowly trusting me again. Those hard days are fewer now and he trusts quicker. It can be difficult though, especially when it seemingly comes out of now where.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

My son’s days are my hard days as I haven’t learned how not to get sucked into his bad mood

Again zi might be teaching you how to suck eggs and I'm not an adoptive parent.

Just remember it's not personal. It really really isn't. Their behaviour is communicated their own issues,past trauma,insecurities. It is not a reflection of who you are or how he sees you.

He's too young to fully comprehend what he needs and why so he just reacts. Just like with the hugs. He needs to know he's safe,that he's loved,that you're not going anywhere. He just knows to ask for hugs, and even when you're giving them it doesn't fully fulfil that need , because that takes time and it's more than just hugs.

I agree but I’ll expand, it’s not that he needs to know, it’s that he needs to feel it too. And trust it. It’s going to take a long time...! x

I agree but I’ll expand, it’s not that he needs to know, it’s that he needs to feel it too. And trust it. It’s going to take a long time...! x

Absolutely this, attachment is separate from relationship - bonds that endure over space and time take time to build abd be relied on.

@mahrezzy I don't have much time to post but just wanted to say thank you - I am the same as you, aha works for me as long as I remember and have the energy to utilise it! I think most parents are the same.

TP is based on the same vast body of research based parenting which aha refers to - aha is usually the more complete and broadbase resource and is more accurate, as the author is very qualified. I think understanding this helps with interpreting TP.

@donquixotedelamancha PACE and other therapeutic parenting advice is based on the same vast body of research based parenting set out comprehensively ahaparenting.

It’s very difficult as I look for logical reasons why he’s behaving how he is and there aren’t any. I ask him what’s wrong and doesn’t know I think (personally, based on my experiences) yes there are always reasons, they don't have to be logical as feelings aren't logical, he won't be able to tell you the reasons for many years (my dc are older and can only express their feelings if they are in the right mood), you have to play detective here, but - and to me this is really important - if and when you get it right you see an immediate change - like a load off their back, and relief. This is the whole "name it to tame" it I think - there is a lot of hard research about it - if you google "dan siegel name it to tame it" on youtube, he explains it in a more expert way.

Sometimes all you need is to do things to lighten the mood - such as going out for a romp or to kick a ball, seeing new things.

In relation to attachment this relationship is the same as any other, sometimes it works easy and sometimes you have to go the extra mile to reconnect - it is the same with bio children - they come home from school with their thoughts and feelings, it takes conscious effort to turn my thoughts away from what I was doing and connect sometimes. Same with staying connected with other adults, sometimes an effort is required.

Your relationship sounds lovely with your ds, your intuition sounds really good, make sure you see the very many good things in your relationship with him!