Why I’m No Longer Talking To Non-Adopters About Adoption

[Moominmammaatsea]

With sincere apologies to Reni Eddo-Lodge for the rip-off title of my thread (by the way, Why I’m No Longer Talking To White People About Race is a truly magnificent read and the essential handbook for anyone who wants to understand race relations in Britain today), but I am heartily sick of folk on here being told we’re wrong/doing it all wrong/and it will all go wrong...because we’re all wrong.

Just that really.

I think non-adopter perspectives can be helpful/interesting, in some circumstances.

I think adult adoptee voices can be helpful in some circumstances, but obviously adoption has changed a lot, and one adoptee is one adoptee, and our children are our children.

I think there's a place for birth parent voices, but often the birth parents who post are nothing like our children's birth parents.

There's a place for social workers... But I'd generally say unless they're also adopters, this isn't it. If we want social work advice, we know how to get it.

But mostly I'm with you, OP!

I do get riled when people come on adoption and give advice, or make false equivalence with their children (even when their children are sen it whatever, it even if their children have suffered trauma), when they're not adopters/their children aren't adopted. They may think it's similar, but it's not. I think there's a place for non-adopters, but frequently it's not on threads here asking for advice. This is the adoption board, which adopters should be able to post on to get help from adopters, without non-adopters adding their ha'penny.

In general life, I decide whether I can be bothered to educate or not. And that depends how much sleep I've had.

My 'or's there have become 'it's, sorry.

@percypetulant I don't agree with most of your post (obviously).

I think it’s mixed for me, this is a board for adoption and people involved in all parts of the adoption world will post - adopters, adopters, birth parents - and each bring their own perspective and there’s value in each. I particularly think birth parents who post here are incredibly brave and I’ve valued their perspective greatly.

In terms of children I think there’s a particular trauma for adopted children that isn’t easily found in mainstream society - loosing your birth family with all that comes with it, and possibly loosing it all again when they leave foster care and are placed permanently is a very particular type of trauma. It speaks to your identity, and holds deep questions about your very being in a way that other childhood trauma doesn’t necessarily.

I think where posters are able to acknowledge that their experience of parenting their child through trauma is different to yours, it’s valuable to have different perspectives but where someone is telling me “it’s just like....” I’m likely to scroll on by.

I also think there’s benefit in hearing the lives experiences of adoptees, because they will have a unique perspective on things which can help give an understanding of how it was for them. In saying that, people and their circumstances and experiences are all unique - I tend to try and take what’s of worth and leave the rest.

I think @sassygromit may not be an adopter, @Moominmammaatsea.

Well, I do talk to non-adopters about adoption - or should I say "talk at"? ;-) Even if they are well-intended, they just don't understand that we are on a completely different playing field. I try to educate, but it can be difficult to do so without revealing private information. For instance, when I say my child was furious, they will have something very different in mind to what actually happened in my home. To an extend I don't blame them, because it is very hard to imagine if you are not living it.

On a very positive note, my children have taken their trauma related behavours to some people's homes and done completely unacceptable things and so far everyone has been incredibly understanding and generous. I am incredibly grateful for that!

Those threads freak me out because it makes me realise what some people really think/wonder about our DC.

We just potter through life, doing our normal things, but are the parents at the school gate gossiping about whether my DD is ‘damaged’? Or if she’s misbehaving are they thinking to themselves that it’s because she’s adopted?

I generally don’t think that way but those threads stop me in my tracks.

In terms of children I think there’s a particular trauma for adopted children that isn’t easily found in mainstream society - loosing your birth family with all that comes with it, and possibly loosing it all again when they leave foster care and are placed permanently is a very particular type of trauma. It speaks to your identity, and holds deep questions about your very being in a way that other childhood trauma doesn’t necessarily

In relation to trauma I think that there are two things:

• every situation is unique whether adoption related or not adoption related but there will be significant overlaps in terms of how the trauma manifests and therapeutic work; and

• in relation to adoption, overlaying this, there are often very complicated thoughts and feelings to do with connection and understanding, and about the bio family (which are again unique to each adoptee but there will be common ground) and I think the more we know of the wide and varying adoptee situations, the better it will be. This also applies to birth parent situations, as understanding better would help adoptive children. At the moment the problem is that adoptee voices are too disparate and scattered but with decent research we would be able to get something more coherent and congruent.

I agree people seem to be totally ignorant about adoption, as if we are doing the "poor" child a favour! However the worst thing that upset me the most was when our son died a "friend " said well it's not like losing your own . Must admit a lot of wise people post here, thank you.

@Moominmammaatsea I didn't take offence at all - I disagreed with most of what percy said which isn't the same thing as taking offence - I said "obviously" as I have expressed opposing views quite a few times.

I think anyone posting from experiences whether their experiences match yours/whether they are adoptive or not are doing so on the basis that if it helps, it helps, if it doesn't, it doesn't.

The other thread wasn't anything to do with genuine advice and the two shouldn't be confused - the other thread was a bit of a free for all started with a wide open OP - and the OP appears to have disappeared.

For me personally gaining an understanding while I was growing up (as an adoptee...) of how nonadoptive families worked was of profound help to me ingaining perspective and deciding what I wanted from my future. I also think that increasing understanding of parenting reserach and child dev in relation to the wide spectrum of "normal" is fundamental and missing from adopter training.

(I should say, I copied the phrase "coherent and congruent" from an adopter here - thought it was brilliant!)

At the moment the problem is that adoptee voices are too disparate and scattered but with decent research we would be able to get something more coherent and congruent.

I couldn’t agree more - the lack of consistent research in adoption, particularly with adoptees, is scandalous given how complex the issues are and how far reaching the consequences of getting it wrong. Decent research specifically into adoption (as opposed to trauma, child development etc) would make a huge difference to how we work with adoptive families - but research costs money and adoption is too often the “poor boy” in local authorities.

I agree, and the research would help any child being brought up away from bio parents, for whatever reason. As you say, the consequences of getting it wrong can be far reaching and affect the whole of society as the children grow to be adults.

Just chipping in to say I also found the other thread hard going. I don’t post much these days on adoption board but at various points in the past have found all the people here and the various perspectives of adopters, adoptees and birth parents really helpful.

I do talk to non adopters about adoption (sometimes). I certainly bang on about the impact of trauma on child development quite regularly to some of my colleagues in education! Sometimes people get it, sometimes they don’t. I agree with, I think it was @Jellycatspyjamas who said sometimes you have the energy to engage and educate and sometimes you don’t.

Bottom line is I’m very grateful to all the posters on here over the years who’ve taken the time to give really useful and helpful advice and insight which has helped me navigate some of the difficulties me and my lovely DD have experienced.

@Moominmammaatsea @sassygromit

I think non-adopters posting about their birth children should qualify that they have no experience of being an adopter, and therefore the experience may be completely irrelevant. It's difficult when non-adopters post their recommendations based on parenting birth children. This is why I'm glad threads no longer appear in active.

Parenting a birth child (even I've who has experienced trauma) and am adopted child is different.

I'm so glad to read this thread. I read the other one and was so depressed!

My DH and I are in the very early stages of considering adoption and I'm aware that we're very naive about the whole thing at the moment. I often read on this forum but don't comment because I don't have any experience to bring as I'm just learning atm.

I was so shocked by some of the "statistics" on the other thread, like that 50% of adoptions end in breakdown... Surely that can't be right?!

Glad to read real adopters experiences on here. Sorry for the stupid question but when people talk about difficult behaviours/responses due to trauma how did that play out for you? Again sorry for very naive and stupid question but I can't find anywhere online with specific examples, I know I can speak to adoption agencies but I just feel too naive for that atm!

@LovesFood1987

Hi, I’m nine years into being an adoptive family and have been on adoption forums for over 12 years. I know, or know of, 100s of adopters. I’ve yet to see any statistical evidence for this 50% of adoptions fail claim. Of all the people I know only 2 experienced their children going back to birth family in the later teen years, and a handful who disrupted shortly after placement or during intros. Certainly nothing else 50%.
I do know of children who were placed in theraputic settings - personally I dont see this as disruption as they remain part of the adopted family.

I really don’t recognise this 50% number. From my experience there is a chunk of families who don’t experience any great issues, you don’t see them on forums because they are too busy cracking on with life. There is a chunk who encounter more serious long standing issues, a proportion of who will disrupt.

Then there is the middle chunk, who have periods of difficulty, challenges, theraputic inputs etc, along with periods of stability.

I’m in this middle chunk. My son was nearly 8 when he came to me. He is 16 now and, even if I say so myself, is turning into a fine young man.

He got his GCSEs, is in college, has lots of friends, is a scout, has a Saturday job, obsessed with football, spends far too much time on the PS4 and has stinky armpits. Pretty average stroppy teenager really. We have had lots of great adventures together and whilst I miss my little boy, I’m really enjoying finding out who this young man is.

It hasnt always been like this. I think its fairly commom for the first year to be rough. We had a ‘honeymoon’ of about 5 months, then a very difficult time for about 8 months until we went to court for our adoption order. We had a good couple of years, age 10 to 14 were tough, it included 2 years of therapy which is the hardest thing I’ve ever done and was traumatic for him. He emerged from it as a very mature young man who has come to terms with the events which led him to be adopted. That is not to say there are still issues, but these are mainly emotional things for which he comes to me for support, rather than pushing against me.
Those 4 years or so were not full on ‘bad’, we had fantastic holidays to France, Morroco, Rhodes, we visted friends in Edinburgh and Cornwall every year, he did scout camp, I started back at the gym and going out with friends. He moved from special school to mainstream school. We carried on with normal life.
In the worst times he could be aggressive, verbally abusive, he caused a fair bit of damage to the house, he would throw stuff at me. I had some bruises but nothing too serious as I got therapy in before he was too big to cause me any serious harm. Any episodes always ended up with him a crumpled heap on the floor sobbing his heart out. I’d rather have a missile chucked at me than see my son is such distress.
At 16, most of our issues are standard teenage ones, and has ASD and a learning difficulty. He is learning to navigate a world which isnt set up for people like him.
Yes its been tough at times, I’m sure there will be more tough times. But neither of us are going anywhere, except together. I’m very proud and priviliged to be his mum.
There are lots of families like us out there, happy, settled and just getting on with life.

I don't recognise the 50% figure, either. I think this is from the expectation that adopters are heroic perfect parents.

Some adoptions do distrupt, yes, but not 50%.

I suspect they're including those who have to go into some sort of away from home care, in order to meet the child's needs, and teens that don't get on with their parents- but both of those happen in birth families, too.

Many (most?) adopted children will have higher needs than the general population. Why then should adopters be expected to be more perfect than other parents? We do it, many of us. We rise to the challenge. But it's ok, and not a failure of adoption, to get help with those challenges.

I'm betting they don't talk about kids going to boarding school as 'birth-parenting breakdown', for instance. Yet if an adopted child needed specialist residential schooling, I think that poster would call that 'adoption breakdown'. I don't think that's fair.

I also don't think it's fair to blame disruption on adopters- that they're too middle class, or too high expectations, or not patient enough, or whatever. They signed up to be parents, just parents, not specialist highly trained carers, and they've likely given it their all. Adopters aren't paid. They're just parents. And many parents need help with higher needs kids.

@percypetulant

Absolutely agree about residential boarding schools. I’m also of the view that an adoptee choosing to have some kind of relationship with their birth family does not mean the adoption has broken down

From a disruption point of view, I tend to think of children who end up back in the care system, with the local authority taking on a corporate parenting role and that’s considerably less than 50%. In all honesty I’m surprised more don’t disrupt in the first year because those early days can be awful fir lots of reasons and I don’t think enough is done to prepare adoptive parents for just how hard an adjustment is coming their way.

In terms of trauma related behaviour, it can cover a huge range from children who needs a lot of attention (my daughter needs to be near me all the time if I’m home - like she’ll find me every 3 minutes), it can be lots of distress, aggression, destructive behaviour and violence. It can also look like lying or stealing or attention seeking. As you get to know your child you learn what their particular behaviours are and how to deal with them.

It can be daunting, but there are also good times, when you’re just getting on with it and living life. Folk tend to look for support when things are going badly or times are hard so it can seem like adopters lurch from one crisis to another but most adopters I know are just getting on with life.

I also don't think it's fair to blame disruption on adopters- that they're too middle class, or too high expectations, or not patient enough, or whatever.

I don’t think disruption is something to “blame” anyone for, it happens and is hugely distressing for everyone concerned. I do think though some parents find it very difficult to adjust their expectations of adoption and parenting to include the child they adopted, and really struggle to flex their way of being to meet their child’s needs. I don’t think it’s about blame, so much as recognising adoptive parents can at times contribute to the breakdown in relationship. On the other hand sometimes children are placed for adoption when permanent foster care would be a much better option for them, in which case neither child or parent sends much of a chance.

Thanks so much for you replies, really insightful 🙂 I am so thankful for this forum 😊

The other thread talked about total relationship breakdown into adulthood, rather than just disruption, or the situation in childhood. Absolutely agree about residential boarding schools. I’m also of the view that an adoptee choosing to have some kind of relationship with their birth family does not mean the adoption has broken down I absolutely agree that wanting to have a relationship with birth family doesn't mean breakdown. In relation to living in therapeutic settings outside the family, this would depend on the individual situation and relationship.

Bottom line is there are no statistics available so impossible to know at the moment.

But it also needs to be remembered that there are things that can be done to improve outcomes.

@percypetulant Parenting a birth child (even I've who has experienced trauma) and am adopted child is different it is a similar situation to the one I described about trauma therapy, I think - a venn diagram, with a significant overlap applying to parenting both, but with some aspects exclusive to each.

However..interestingly, when thinking about "parenting a birth child" something to take into consideration here is that for knocking on fifty years the evidence based parenting guidance - ie that based on peer reviewed research - advises against punishment, time outs, (nonnatural) consequences - so looks and feels like "therapeutic parenting". Yet this has not really filtered down to common knowledge, it seems - or even to SWs possibly, I am not sure. So, on threads on mumsnet in chat or parenting or aibu, the advice given is pretty much fifty fifty old school advising on confiscations, punishments, time outs and the other fifty percent more along the lines of "ahaparenting" which is more the evidence based parenting advice I refer to above.