Persistent "lying" and negative attention seeking

[PositivetoNegative]

AD is 4, just started school. She has been with us over 3years. No attachment issues so far, just a bit behind academically.

Always sought out attention but thrived off positive attention. She is very cute and is very sociable and looks for attention by waving at people, giggling sweetly (still even age 4) and generally lapping up any praise. We have always praised her up.

Since starting school this has all gone completely the other way. She likes school, no issues getting her in, loves her teacher, has a close group of small friends. Teacher has gently informed me that she does seek out attention all the time though. This is usually in the form of first aid and bumping her head. She goes to first aid for the smallest thing. That isn't uncommon in itself I know. She is also incredibly happy and smiley and enthusiastic when at school. Always wants to be first to try something.

When she gets home though she is a nightmare. Usual tired kid things but what is concerning me is her total rejection of positive praise right now. She has begun doing the following:

1. saying other children have hurt her.
2. going on and on about a cut on her finger, even when I cuddle her and pay full attention, she carries on? As if I haven't acknowledged it?
3. if I say no to something or she strops, she then seeks out attention by telling her dad I "made her sad". Again, won't stop.
4. says something hurts etc.

She seems to have linked saying she is hurt or unwell with attention she can receive from both school and home. Yet doesn't lie to her teacher about kids hurting her? I'm not sure a 4 year old can lie by the way...for want of a better word.

I've been up the school and there aren't any problems. They are a brilliant school and I believe them.

We have decided that as acknowledging the negatives does nothing to sooth her (and actually only seems to encourage it) we will start distracting with positives instead. This has really worked this week. For example:

"So and so hurt me"
Me: "I'm sorry to hear that, did you tell a teacher?"
"Yes"
"Good. Now what's this I hear about a gold star? That is amazing" etc.

This really worked and we have really gone overboard with praise.

Today I found a certificate in her bag. She didn't mention it. When I praised it up she didn't even look at me. She then went back to "I hurt myself".

I'm hitting my head against a brick wall here. Why is she rejecting positive praise? What am I fucking up here? I've been into school and bloody cried on the teacher who is just astounded because my daughter is so bloody happy!

I knew my daughter would struggle a bit as she has gone from being the centre of our world, my mum having her and also a childminder with only a few kids to a class of 30. She has always sought out attention and admiration but never ever wanted attention for negative things.

I know this is a sign of her needing to be close but I am doing the bloody best I can. We all work, she is at school. She has to go to bed early as she is so young and absolutely shattered. I no longer take her to the childminder as dh can do it now and I think that might have affected her.

I feel like a massive failure right now and I'm uncomfortable that my daughter does seem to actually be lying to get attention? She isn't ignored! When I ask her if she wants a cuddle she sometimes rejects it. Could this be because I no longer am the main care giver because of my working hours? DH does the majority now. But he did spend the year adoption leave with her so it's not an usual thing in our family.

I don't know. Not even sure it's an adoption issue. Sigh.

Sorry, that is one long waffle!

Do you think she's asking you for comfort rather than praise?

If she's had a challenging day at school she could be seeking reassurance and cuddles and maybe needs to be sad for a bit about something?

Could you help her describe her feelings and if it is sadness offer comfort (rather than a response to fix/make happy)?

Is she only just 4 or will she be 5 soon?

She was 4 early August so a young 4.

Her days seem to be happy at school. The childminder says she bounces out happily, yet when I pick her up she always greets me with a grumble.

I've done lots of talking about feelings and she is very good at saying something has made her sad or cross or happy. I offer cuddles readily and she has always absorbed them before but recently she cuddles for a second and then pulls away. I'm not sure what I've done but we don't feel close right now and that is probably making it worse.

She has delayed speech so cannot really verbalise what it is that she needs to say. This could well be why she goes back to the same story of sadness and blaming someone for hurting her when they haven't (or did but it was 3 weeks ago!). Perhaps she cannot say why she is sad...hmmm. She can tell me she missed me though.

If you think you don’t feel close, she’ll be feeling it too.

School plus CM is long day for young 4 too so she will be tired.

What do you do once you’re home? Do you still need to feed her? Do reading?

Is there room to bin off everything and focus entirely on bonding activities? Baths, cuddles, silly games etc without even talking about school particularly? (Recounting your day is hard when you’re a tired 4 yo. I used to just ask what they’d had for pudding...)

Don’t discount as well that the happy/good behaviour at school could also be masking whatever she’s really feeling - particularly if she’s a people pleaser.

Sorry, x posted with you there. Not trying to tell the mum of someone with delayed speech that talking is hard... you already know that...

That sounds really hard. Just turned 4 is very young to be in school, could that be it? Is she overwhelmed by it? My ds will be 4 in April and won't be starting school until September 2021 so he will be 5&1/2.

DD (y5) came home from school this week having done really well in a test for the first time ever and still made the story about how she did well in test but simultaneously somehow got in trouble for something or nothing about doing well in test.

So the behaviour you’re describing is one I recognise (and haven’t fixed in DD).

She definitely masks unhappiness in front of others. She always has. We have constantly had the "oh she is just so happy, she never cries" right from when she first came home. Thankfully she does cry and get grumpy with us and I'm happy with that in some ways because it shows we are her safe people.

After school dh brings her home and cooks dinner while she colours in etc. When I get home we all eat dinner together and we try to chat to her about our day and hers (hard when she struggles to communicate). Then after dinner she chooses a book with me and I give her a bath or shower. She might have time to play with her toys. We do "homework" and she loves doing that with me.

She can't verbalise what's wrong and I'm failing as a detective right now.

It is young to start school and she is overwhelmed. But she does love it. She adores learning and when I weighed it up I decided to send her.

That’s a really long day for a 4 year old tbh, I’d spend the time with her playing games and giving her comfort - the key phrase is doing things “with you”. I’d totally drop the homework - there’s no evidence that homework supports learning in early years and if she’s tired after her day there’s no point. My DD has only really started doing homework regularly in P4 and even then I’m not pushing it and neither is school.

She will have lots of conflicting feelings which are hard for any child to explain, much less one with delayed speech - look at some theraplay games to do with her, they promote physical contact without being obviously about cuddles etc.

I’m also going to stick my neck out and say two parents working full time is a lot for adopted children - is there space for one of you to reduce your hours so that she comes home to home from school a day or two a week. My two are older but absolutely would not cope with childminder more that 2/3 days a week so I’ve returned to work part time to accommodate them being at home. I know it’s not always what you want, but being around more in the early years will help hugely.

Those behaviours are often present with children with speech delay. It seems like she doesn't have the emotional language to explain in detail why she feels a certain way so she reverts to something that she knows will get the same message across - I am hurt, I feel sad etc. If you can see what has happened first hand and know that she hasn't hurt herself, often it's helpful to use a 'wondering aloud' technique- day ' I know that you didn't fall over but I wonder if you're upset because the other children wouldn't let you play with that toy' etc etc. Then empathise.

I think it's important also to think about these behaviour as connection seeking and not attention seeking. It is highly likely that she experienced early trauma/ change of carers which will have had some impact in her social and emotional development, though may not be obviously visible and be very context specific . She is also extremely young in her year group which may mean that given her life experiences and young age she is struggling to keep up with the social and emotional expectations of school.

Do school know that she was adopted? Can they provide some additional support, some social skills intervention? If not can you tap into some post adoption support. I know of some children who have had play therapy and it's been extremely helpful.

Has she been assessed by a speech and language therapist?

Btw you sound lovely and are doing a great job!

My daughter is a little like yours, however mine is now 7 and has only just started doing it (that I've noticed anyway).

My DD has a neurological condition which means she cannot cry and doesn't feel pain particularly well. This meant that during her early years, we spent a lot of time in A&E as she once broke a limb and I didn't notice for a few days. She's since swallowed coins, picked up my straighteners when they were red hot, banged herself badly and has also had persistent tonsillitis. So I feel she's had A LOT of my time and the attention of various professionals over the years.

Now we have everything under control I can spot her triggers. I know when she's genuinely poorly. I have educated her on the dangers of falling, touching things she shouldn't etc. We see her consultant annually for her heart, neurological condition and 3 monthly for her eyes. We haven't visited A&E in the last 2 years (phew). And I actually believe this is why she has started with the "it hurts", "xxx hit me" "I have a temperature" etc etc.

I think she's realised that she used to get a lot of one to one time with me, out and about at various appointments. I'd stay home when she was poorly/hurt herself. It would always be me staying in hospital with her. So whilst I'm not saying you don't give your daughter attention, perhaps she's noticed a reduction in it due to school? Perhaps she knows she gets extra attention if hurt/poorly?

I don't have a solution, in my case I just kind of brush it off. But like I say, my DD is older. I have a quick look/feel at "what's wrong" and then change the conversation.

It is young to start school and she is overwhelmed.

That’s significant tbh, she may love school and want to learn but if she’s overwhelmed that’s going to impact her learning and her behaviour and emotional wellbeing. If you’re keen to keep her in school I’d be actively reducing every other source of stress or challenge and really monitoring her overwhelm. So school might be ok, but school plus childminder may be too much, school plus childminder plus homework may be way too much - it all compounds. So if you’re sending her to school and you know she finds it overwhelming make every other part of her day easy, secure and restful so that she can relax from feeling overwhelmed.

You’re not a “bad” mum by any stretch of the imagination - just keep in mind that adopted kids start off with a stress loss that others don’t have so their capacity to cope is less and they need adults to regulate the demands made on them.

. It seems like she doesn't have the emotional language to explain in detail why she feels a certain way so she reverts to something that she knows will get the same message across - I am hurt, I feel sad etc. If you can see what has happened first hand and know that she hasn't hurt herself, often it's helpful to use a 'wondering aloud' technique- day ' I know that you didn't fall over but I wonder if you're upset because the other children wouldn't let you play with that toy' etc etc. Then empathise.

Absolutely agree and I need to do more of this. School know she is adopted. They do some kind of social club with puppets with her for her talking.

I've been fighting speech and language for 2years. She should start speech therapy next term. Seems an age away. I'm so sick of not being able to talk to my daughter properly.

I’m also going to stick my neck out and say two parents working full time is a lot for adopted children - is there space for one of you to reduce your hours so that she comes home to home from school a day or two

I do manage once a week to drop her and pick her up from school. My mum also does a day, my daughter loves my mum and she brings her to our home to relax until my dh gets home. That's just how it is really and how it will stay in terms of money etc.

As for homework, we don't do it seriously. It's just reading her school book together and spotting the correct numbers! She actually brings me these activities and really loves doing handwriting sheets for some reason. I won't knock it or discourage it while she is happy to do it.

So the easiest hard thing to remove from your routine is family dinner. If she ate on her own with DH, all the time after that can all be play/bonding time. And then you eat later.

If she’s already struggling, family meal at table might be too hard.

You could probably reduce showers too - just to get more time that’s just hanging out, not doing chores time (I’m assuming here that shower is chore but bath is fun- adjust as fits!)

I’d start with that - it’s easier than JellyCat’s suggestion but I do think she has a point. I don’t know any adoptive families where both parents work FT.

The only reason we tried to have meals together was so we were all sat talking together...as suggested by various speech and language people. It doesn't work though, the poor girl can't keep up.

I can definitely make an effort to stop the chores though while she is awake. It just becomes habit doesn't it, popping the washing away or washing up quickly. We are far too busy with those little things that don't amount to much really. I used to take her swimming once a week, me and her. Will start that up again too as I used to do it as a bonding exercise.

I think we have all been trudging on the winter treadmill. We are all grumpy and tired. Thanks all, I hope some slight adjustments can help to get us back on track!

Op if you have a look on the communication trust website there's lots of free resources and tips for supporting language development. For this age child imaginative play at home and school is a fantastic way to support language development.

I'm sorry it's been such a struggle to get salt support but glad it will happen soon. Your dc has had massive changes with school and you're all doing your best atm. Previously LAC children should get more support than what they do. Have school requested other external support like an educational psychologist or specialist teacher?

From your most recent update just to reassure you that the first term at school is very overwhelming and tiring for all children (even more so in your case) and parents! It should get easier!

School have zero concerns about her behaviour. They say she is friendly, well behaved, enthusiastic and kind. She is behind academically but apparently is making huge progress because she is so keen to learn. Apart from the speaking group, they have no reason to investigate anything else. It is only me, at home, who is seeing her unhappiness.

It just becomes habit doesn't it, popping the washing away or washing up quickly.

Yes, do it myself, and now that they’re older usually accompanied by me moaning that they didn’t put their washing in the basket/wash their own plate.

I persisted in family meals for far too long because I had a notion that’s what you were meant to do but life improved a million fold when I stopped. (And then much later was able to reintroduce.)

My daughter had always had lots of ‘hurts’ when she’s struggling. She’s 16 now and still does this sometimes. For her it means I’m overwhelmed/I need you/Nurture me when she can’t say the words.
Difficult I know but she would never have coped with full days at school then childminder afterwards. I had to give up even part time work for a while as she was unravelling. It hasn’t always been easy financially but it’s been worth it.

More than happy to give up on family meals

Could be wrong, but as far as I'm aware the current advice is not to use distraction and oodles of praise. You're meant to acknowledge the hurt or upset and take it seriously because brushing it off or moving onto something else can come across like you're ignoring what they are saying and invalidating their feelings. Just my thoughts...
It sounds hard and I'm sure you're doing a fab job.

For her it means I’m overwhelmed/I need you/Nurture me when she can’t say the words.

Yes I think this is the case, it's just taken a while to click for me. I feel pretty terrible now, I've been wrapped up in other problems (dh health) and being miserable myself. My plan of action is definitely to do the following every night:

1. read a book of her choice to her (not the shit school one)
2. "wonder" how she feels or is
3. play at least one game with her. Playing is not my strong point but I will make the effort to actively play with her.
4. cuddle up and watch Disney together.

I will do baths over showers (she is so whiffy she needs something) and sit with her talking to her while she is in the bath. Family dinners are gone.

Sounds so bloody simple but right now I just want to be left alone to be honest.