Starting nursery, feeling the guilt!

[Spotsandstripes1]

I think I'm looking for reassurance really. Little girl has been with us since birth, now 16 months. Starting nursery one day a week. Have started settling in days this week and it's not going too well. I left the room today for 5 minutes and she screamed the whole time! When I'm in the room she plays quite happily.
I'm worried I will damage her attachment by sending her to nursery. Im worried she will cry all the time. I'm feeling so guilty!
But I really really need this day a week for myself (to work and also get some rest).

Don't worry she's reacting totally normally as are you. Can you start off leaving her for half a day first so it's easier on both of you? The nursery staff will be able to soothe her once you've been gone a while and she's distracted. It will be good for both of you.

I'm worried I will damage her attachment by sending her to nursery

That's not how attachment works.

She's doing one day a week, it will be good for her socialisation and you will be a better parent for the space. She might well cry at first, many kids do, it's normal and healthy.

Agree that it’s not how attachment works.

She’s a baby and she doesn’t understand but if you keep going back for her she will learn that it’s safe to stay and play and you will return. Has she gone straight to full days? If you’re not rushing off to work maybe half days might help ease the transition a bit.

You might consider that her crying is a sign that her attachment pattern is ok. Most children will cry when left in a strange place without their primary caregiver, and they do usually settle down when you leave. You could always wait 5 minutes and give the staff a quick call to ask if she’s settling well after you’ve left.

What will hurt your child more is a very stressed, skint, anxious mummy who never takes time for herself. You’re going through a change here too so be gentle with yourself but please don’t beat yourself up for needing some space - we all need space.

I have been doing drop offs for nearly a month now and our DS has been getting much better, but he still cries at drop off and it’s still quite heart wrenching. I know however that after the door is closed and he’s distracted he is fine and we get sent a lot of happy photos pretty much instantly! (This is with a childminder). Our DS is 20 months and came to us at 6 months, and everybody who has adopted tells me it’s a good sign as it means he’s attached to us.

I have been trying to ease the drop offs though as he tends to start crying when the car stops, or if he sees his bag. I’ve started giving him a snack box as my friend suggested this might make it easier, that he carries in himself. It kind of worked up until the door opened... but it definitely helped matters!!

Following for any other distraction techniques. I think after a while it becomes a habit rather than actually being upset if you know what I mean. I think he is upset about the separation, but he does have a genuinely lovely day with the CM....

My mum was a CM and she said it’s normal for the first month or two and it won’t change quickly but it will change xxx

Thank you, you are all so nice. It's so hard but I will persevere. We have an extra settling in day booked to help. And I will think about starting with half days.

My dd cried for the first few times, it's normal. Please try not to worry, if you have had her from birth there should be no difference in attachment than "natural" kids (those who are matched later have different situations)

if you have had her from birth there should be no difference in attachment than "natural" kids

Rubbish.

And please don't make out my child is 'unnatural'. I'm assuming you're not an adopter, #stucknoue?

But OP, this is likely a sign of secure attachment, that you're doing a great job. As I learned for myself, how will a child learn that mum always comes back if she never goes anywhere? OP, you said yourself, you need time to yourself. You're doing the right thing.

Please try not to worry, if you have had her from birth there should be no difference in attachment than "natural" kids (those who are matched later have different situations)

This is so not true. Older children often actually have a better understanding of how they came to be adopted whereas a preverbal child has only feelings that they can't explain.

Attachment begins in the womb - current theory is that it occurs during the last 3 months of the pregnancy.

You can clearly see the effects on my LO of things she experienced in the womb even today more than 3 years later.

OP the most important thing to do is to develop strong goodbye and reuniting routines for the beginning and end of nursery sessions. I would take a drink or snack for her when you pick her up to show you're meeting her need and to help regulate her emotions. Also consider giving her something that smells of you for nap times.

Actually, I think it could affect attachment unless it is done really well. I am assuming that you are doing this because you have to, OP, you need to go back to work financially? If so it comes down to how you manage it, making sure the nursery is a right fit.

But some of the statements on here are simply wrong - there is no benefit, it is not necessarily "good" for you, it won't be "good" for her (but will be ok if well managed) and the supposed benefit from the "socialisation" is irrelevant as taking her to play groups has the same benefit.

The benefit is OP getting what she needs: But I really really need this day a week for myself (to work and also get some rest).

OP can't parent a traumatised child well if she's exhausted. And she really, really needs this day a week.

Given OP is worried enough to post on here, she's not blind to the issue, and therefore can do it really well.

OP, the important this is to reassure her you are coming back, can you give her something of yours to look after until you come back etc? Attachment will not be affected by you placing your child in good quality care, sensitively and thoughtfully, while you get much needed time to be yourself, whether that is work or watching boxsets.

pp I understand your defence of and I am sure you are right about the OP, but what I said about no benefit was in response to the other posts on this thread.

I think it would be better to focus on how to manage it well and the sort of pitfalls you can fall into with nurseries, rather than saying "it is all fine, it is all good". In terms of parenting a traumatised child, it is also a ton harder to parent an older child where the early years care (nurseries/cm/etc) has not been managed properly.

A 16mth old will not "learn" mummy comes back because a child doesn't get the concept of time until around 3, as i understand it. So the important thing is to make sure the relationships with the adults at the nursery are good and long term - and no, not all nurseries provide anything like that.

There is this urban myth that it benefits the child in terms of socialisation and it is worth making the point that no, there is such benefit at this age - unless maybe the child's parents are from a socio economic group where providing stimulation and socialisation is not possible which isn't going to be the case here.

If I sounded judgemental about the OP that wasn't intentional - my post aimed to be about managing it, not about judging people who have to do it or want to do it.

Someone said "that is not how attachment works" but actually it is, with a 16mo, afaik.

A 16mth old will not "learn" mummy comes back because a child doesn't get the concept of time until around 3, as i understand it The 'fun' of peekaboo is the child learning that the parent comes back. The child doesn't need a concept of time for them to learn mummy goes away, and comes back.

No, the child may not benefit in terms of socialisation. What they will benefit from is a non-burnt out mother, which is essential.

Someone said "that is not how attachment works" but actually it is, with a 16mo, afaik. It's not. One day a week of rest a recuperation for the mother, while a child is in good quality childcare and reassured mum is coming back, is not going to 'break' an attachment built up over 16 months. Attachment is more like elastic than glass.

What OP is describing is signs of a secure attachment, crying when she leaves, settling when she comes back. She's not going to 'break' that by having a day a week to work and/or rest. One person mentioned 'good for her socialisation', along with the prime benefit here of rest for the parent. It may well be good for her socialisation. This isn't the thread to debunk any ideas that 16 month olds 'should' be in nursery. It's about managing transition to nursery for a child whose parent 'really really' needs the time. Jumping on one part of one post to criticise OP and wrongly say it will affect attachment is wrong, IMO.

OP says she needs the time, and is, quite normally, fretting over it, as we all do, and needs reassurance. It's ok for her to need that time, whether or not your assumption of "I am assuming that you are doing this because you have to, OP, you need to go back to work financially?" is true. Even if OP needs this time to drink tea and watch telly, she's not going to break an attachment built up over 16 months of this child's life by taking a day per week.

I made the point it was down to management and it sounds like you agree about that.

This isn't the thread to debunk any ideas that 16 month olds 'should' be in nursery I agree - it isn't so much "don't do it" it is more to do with making informed decisions about how to manage it - which you and i agree is the key thing? I am pretty sure what I have said is right about 16mo. Peekaboo is lots of fun and teaches various things such as an object exists even if you can't see it.

it's about managing transition to nursery for a child whose parent 'really really' needs the time We have agreed on that?

I am assuming that you are doing this because you have to, OP, you need to go back to work financially?

Not necessarily. The OP may need to feel a bit like her “old” self to stop her loosing her sense of identity. She may need some adult conversation or just to feel competent at something - I found early days of adoption the most deskilling thing I’d ever done. In any event you don’t get to decide what constitutes “need”, if the OP want to use the time doing her nails and eating non bond it’s a valid choice and will bring her and her child benefits.

But some of the statements on here are simply wrong - there is no benefit, it is not necessarily "good" for you, it won't be "good" for her (but will be ok if well managed)

Your understanding of early attachment doesn’t fit with my knowledge or experience - this little one is showing some fairly usual proximity seeking behaviours being dropped off at nursery. There’s no reason to think her attachment style will be adversely impacted in fact knowing that people go and come back again will help strengthen her internal working model of relationships which continue when out of sight. Would you be questioning the child’s attachment to a dad who may be at work all day?

16 months is a long time to be at home with a little one, significantly longer than most maternity leaves. The OP needs the time, her little one will benefit from a more relaxed mum and other adults who know and care for her.

I remember well my social worker basically telling me to put my DC into school and nursery about 8 weeks post placement- her argument was that they needed the routine and I needed the head space to cope with the demands they made on me. Best advice ever. We were all much calmer, happier and relaxed and I was more emotionally available to my children for having some time away.

Your understanding of early attachment doesn’t fit with my knowledge or experience

My comment on the benefits wasn't to do with attachment. What I wrote about benefits is in accordance with all the research I have ever read on the subject, and all discussions I have had with psychologists. This is not to say it is perfectly put, but it is broadly right, I think.

My comment to do with attachment was that yes it could be affected if it were not managed well - which I am pretty sure is correct - because of the age of the child.

In terms of being at home for 16months being a long time, I and many of my friends gave up careers to be sahm for a few years and so I have direct experience of this too. It is hard work, I agree. Child care is a valid choice too, it is available for parents as a valid choice, and if managed properly it is fine. I support women having a choice, and I am not going to judge parents on choices re child care. My comments are to do with knowing the possible affects so that it can be managed well.

I am assuming that you are doing this because you have to, OP, you need to go back to work financially? my quote - just to clarify again that if it came across as judgement it wasn't intended. (I have already said that upthread)

Just to respond to your specific points re attachment:

this little one is showing some fairly usual proximity seeking behaviours being dropped off at nursery I agree with that
There’s no reason to think her attachment style will be adversely impacted it is to do with how it is managed
in fact knowing that people go and come back again will help strengthen her internal working model of relationships which continue when out of sight that is not correct for a 16mo - they are not developmentally ready to be doing that sort of internal work!!!

Would you be questioning the child’s attachment to a dad who may be at work all day? attachment is to do with primary carer at this age

I've just had time to reread all your posts. Thank you for all the positive responses, you have reassured me, and I'm feeling more confident. I don't need this financially, but I do need the time, headspace, and challenge of doing some work! I do believe the nursery will be very good for my little girls development once she has settled. We just need to get over this settling in period.

Sassy - could you elaborate on what you mean by 'well managed' regarding starting nursery? What would a well managed introduction to nursery look like? What do you think I should be considering?

Hope all goes well, spots, and enjoy some quality downtime for yourself.

I'm interested in your expertise, sassygromit, are you an adopter? a child psychology expert? a social worker? Since your understandings of attachment theory differ from the adopters on the thread, I'm wondering what your experience is?

My nursery actually have a policy that states you have to have two full days at nursery as it's much better for them to get used to nursery rather than just one. HoWeber, both my girls did one day per week for the first month and then two days a week from then on! Kids break your heart!! Keep going, you're doing fine xxx

OP there is a lot of info available if you read into it - one thing i mentioned (which I first got from a Penelope Leach book but it was a while ago and it is better you look it up yourself) upthread was "So the important thing is to make sure the relationships with the adults at the nursery are good and long term - and no, not all nurseries provide anything like that" I looked into all this for my dc and it is really easy to find good advice about it all. In fact I remember meeting the sister of one of my dh's clients at a social event who was a social worker and talking with her and she had exactly the same understanding - i had asked her as dc1 was 18 mths at the time and so it was something I was thinking about - so it really isn't "out there" advice. She said she advised clients to send dc to nursery if the clients were not themselves coping or would cope better with a break - which is what this thread is about.

I think you should take what I have said as positive, OP - managing things well now will make a huge difference, I can tell you that from my experience.

@herecomesthespiderbrooch one of my dc had very significant problems because of an accident followed by serious illness because the doctors didn't realise things had gone into lungs,, being in intensive care at a preverbal age, 18 mths of strong medication which mimicked hormones and when he came off it there were very very significant trauma affects which needed a lot of therapeutic input and some attachment affects and I struggled to find decent help and so had to look into it all myself and checked with experts along the way by phone. All is now fine. I am not an expert in it but what i have said on this thread is fairly basic straightforward information. Because I got my dc through it all I am reasonably confident when i pass comment - not as expert but guiding people in the right direction. I am an adoptee and also had to work through a lot of things from my own childhood and so have some awareness from that and also confidence about working through difficulties and avoiding unnecessary problems. I would always check in with professionals but as I say what I have said on this thread is pretty basic. My area of expertise is contract law. You don't have to take on board what I have written. I am always happy to debate and take on new information. Good luck with your adoption journey.

Could you do short settling in sessions everyday? Little and often is usually smoother, a week in between visits is a long long time to a younger toddler. Lots of non adopted children struggle to settle initially and the nursery should be on the ball to help you both overcome it.

Parental guilt we all have it at times!

Actually, just one last thing - when you have dc everyone wants to give you their advice and I was told by various people that my dc should be in nursery from 18 months at the latest as it is good for socialisation and good for the mother - when I looked into it I found the opposite - also we had no good nurseries near us and I was happy being a sahm because I got headspace when dc were asleep or playing at play groups, we had good playgroups near us, and I felt it wasn't forever - so I was coming at this from the opposite side, being told that my dc would permanently damaged if they didn't socialise away from me. Also, when I was out with dc, I would be stopped by mothers in tears because they wished they could be doing the same thing but they had to work.

I had all that in mind when posting, and my first post was in fact sympathising with OP that she had to - wrongly it turned out and this was my mistake, as I didn't read the last line of her OP properly.

attachment is to do with primary carer at this age

The whole point of advise about finding nurseries who promoter long term stable relationships with children is to promote attachment to nursery staff - it’s ridiculous to promote attachment in nursery workers and not pay attention to the secondary carer in a child’s life. Simply put it doesn’t make sense to promote attachment with professional staff while saying attachment only relates to the primary carer.
Some of your “pretty basic” understanding of attachment is very different to mine, and I do work with attachment theory a lot in my professional life. I’d also say that advice about what constitutes “good parenting” is massively socially constructed, particularly around things like nursery -v- stay at home mum -v- nanny/childminder, experts seem to rotate their advice depending on what’s happening socially and politically at the time. I know I could find current experts presenting strong evidence for all three positions without too much difficulty.

At the end of the day, we do what we think is best for our children with the physical, emotional and psychological resources we have available to us. I’m glad you got your child through their adversity, that doesn’t mean your approach or understanding is right for all children - there are many theories and ways of understanding attachment, trauma, change and loss and child development one approach or understanding doesn’t fit all.

jellycats you are a social worker and you have done some training in psychological issues as well, is that right? With all due respect you are also not an expert, and you are also misreading what I have said.

I think you are wrong about the research to do with parenting and developmental issues - there is a huge body of research which all goes in one direction (with some going off on tangents too, granted, but not much) which is extremely easy for normal people (like me) to follow. It makes a huge difference to families and children to have that guidance. The polarised debate on nursery vs home goes on (and yes, social constructs have always been relevant) but even the latest research goes in direction I said - to the best of my knowledge.

Re primary carers/nursery - if the primary carer (or secondary carer or anyone else of significance) are not available, making sure there is an established relationship with the person who is providing care is really important. Surely this is a no brainer? The reason I made the point was because some nurseries are not going to be ideal settings - I have personal experience of this, though not with my dc.

there are many theories and ways of understanding attachment, trauma, change and loss and child development one approach or understanding doesn’t fit all I do quite genuinely think you being misleading here - there is now some pretty good guidance from leading psychiatrists, all saying much the same thing, with clinical results - though admittedly I have also seen a couple talking more about social constructs.

I won't be able to check threads now for a while, so will call it a day and agree to disagree.