To tell DD1 that she shouldn't constantly muscle in on DD2 and her friends at school?

[Lizzie48]

DD1 (9) has always struggled to make friends at school. I've spoken about this before on this board. We faced this problem last year and the therapist who assessed her noted from her observations that the other children were excluded and she wasn't able to interact with them. She told me that she played with her 'invisible fairies' in the play, which I found very sad.

The school put work into helping her with this. One of the TAs helped her learn strategies for making friends, alongside a few other children who were having difficulties. She was also told that she should speak to her teacher about it if she had a problem and they would ask for volunteers to play with her. They used their 'wow' system as an incentive. )You get 'wows' for good behaviour, with a merit certificate awarded once they've earned a certain number of 'wows'.

It seemed to be working and DD1 also became close to one child in particular. But she doesn't always want to play with DD1, which is of course her right.

But instead of speaking to the teacher, she tags along with DD2 (6) and her friends. The problem is that DD2 is very much resenting this now, and has said that she doesn't want DD1 to join in. It all came to a head on Friday when apparently she threw DD1's sun hat over the fence. DD2 is denying this, she says that DD1 did it. It doesn't really matter who's telling the truth in this, but I can believe that DD2 did do it (although DD1 is considerably taller so I'm slightly sceptical).

Anyway, I've told DD1 that she shouldn't muscle in on DD2 and her friends, she should play with friends from her own year. She was upset, saying that she didn't have many friends, and I do feel bad about it. However, I also understand very well why DD2 feels that way, as DD1 does hurt her at home (she hurts me too). The school also seem to have stopped helping her with this. Though maybe they overlook it precisely because DD1 is regularly trying to play with DD2.

I hate to think that DD1 would end on her own as a result of this, but DD2 has shown annoyance about this before. I'm really wondering how some of you would handle this?

Please excuse the horrific grammar!

With regard to hugs etc I try to reinforce that saying goodbye is polite and there's never any need to be rude. You don't have to hug / kiss someone but a high five is usually a good compromise for both parties.

Hi OP, Can I suggest you try getting this moved to the Adoption board, you'll get responses there from people who understand what you're dealing with, also you could try having a look at Adoption UK forums board there is always some very good support and advice on there.
Personally I'd be asking the school how they're using your DDs PP+ and trying to get SW involved with school to give them some attachment disorder specific, strategies.

Thank you, @1099 I will do that. Social Services were involved with this a year ago, because of issues connected with my own past. There was a Child Protection Plan and then Child in Need, but that came to an end in September. The SW was a very good advocate for DD1, and the SENCO has been more involved since then. The difficulty is that the school don't see the violent meltdowns, as DD1 doesn't behave like that there. She really is a Jekyll and Hyde.

Re schools, I don't think moving DD1 to a different school would work really. She doesn't cope with change at all, and she only has 2 years to go until she moves on to high school.

Hopefully the meeting will be positive. And I'm hoping we'll finally get the therapy that DD1 clearly needs. It's been a long road.

Moving schools at this point, unless to somewhere skilled with children with semh needs, will do more harm than good. If she has spd, that will explain the hurting others to an extent, but people hugely underestimate attachment issues and the on going internal emotional turmoil that some children experience. I would push for EP involvement. If her sensory needs are significant, ask for a referral to OT also. Do you get any support from the post adoption team? It sounds like her emotional immaturity is causing some regressive behaviours and that is exhausting for all involved. If she continues experiencing difficulties like this, she would be eligible for assessment for an EHC as the Local Authority would be very hard pushed to prove that under the terms of the Code of Practice that she is not displaying needs that are impacting on her educational progress and potential.

I read 'How to talk: Siblings without rivalry' recently and I found it really helpful in dealing with some situations between my two DDs. I would really recommend it. Since the teaching staff aren't intervening adequately I wonder if your DDs could reach an agreement between them that feels fair to both of them?

Thank you for all the advice. Yes, the Post Adoption team have been involved, but they're so frustrating. They arranged the assessment 2 years ago, but the therapy hasn't happened yet. The therapist who worked with us is on long-term sick and they've said they'll assign someone else, but it hasn't happened yet. This is because DD1's needs are not as extreme as what other adopted children are facing.

We were given some pointers by the therapist's manager, but they weren't all that helpful. She said we should comfort DD1 after her violent meltdowns, as they would be a scary place for her to be. But that really isn't possible when DD2 is distressed at having been hit. Not when I'm alone with the girls at any rate.

We've now approached our GP surgery to make a referral as well, the doctor we spoke to said we should write a description of her difficulties and hand it over to reception for her, which we duly did. So we're waiting to see what comes of that as well.

We do get some DLA for her, thankfully, which goes towards her gymnastics and martial arts.

This is a really good book which you would read to enable you to be proactive in teaching DD1 skills in making and keeping friends and getting along with others generally (along with the other books referred to below it can make a huge difference in helping a child form relationships):

The Unwritten Rules of Friendship by Natalie Madorsky Elman and Eileen Kennedy-Moore

There are lots of books aimed at kids in relation to playing with others and making friends which you could read with DD1. They cover boundaries (in child terms), being aware of other people's needs, that how the child acts has an impact on how other people react to her and so on, putting the child back in the driving seat and giving the child a belief that they can bring about changes themselves. One really good example which we went back to over and over is "How to Be a Friend: A Guide to Making Friends and Keeping Them (Dino Life Guides for Families) by Laurie Krasny Brown (Author)". It looks like it is aimed at very young kids but I have known adults to learn something from it

Picking up on what a pp has said about DD1 needing extra help this is an informative video which you may find helpful when thinking about therapies:

This is the best article I have ever read about handling violence or aggression in children, it may help:

www.parentingscience.com/aggression-in-children.html

In relation to the sanctions you mention, nearly everything I read about child psychology tells us that sanctions or consequences or punishments are often going to be counterproductive, building up anger and getting only short term results, incidentally. There are other ways of handling unwanted behaviours.

In relation to the relationship between the dds, my feeling is that if you concentrate on them both entirely as two separate individuals, helping them with their individual needs, and also generally teach them to treat others (everyone!) properly, with empathy, kindness, respecting differences, and so on, then they will work out their relationship with each other for themselves, over time.

It’s really difficult. My two are younger than yours (7 & 5) but were adopted older, my DD can be very aggressive towards her brother at times and I think for his well being he needs to see her violent behaviour being addressed - otherwise I teach him that people can be mean to him and it doesn’t matter.

What I find works is, as far as possible, heading it off at the pass. So if I know she's had a bad day, is in a volatile mood or just is quite cranky I don’t leave them unsupervised. I make sure she has a snack when she comes home from school, try to give her control over little things etc so she doesn’t always feel like she’s pushing against me.

I’m lucky in that I can be in the kitchen and see into their play room, the living room and garden so it’s relatively easy to supervise without being on top of them. I wouldn’t let the play in their bedrooms while I’m downstairs though if I know she’s struggling because her struggling usually tips over into hitting behaviours. She will tend to look to see if I’m around before hitting her brother so just knowing that I’m watching is a deterrent.

If she does hit, I’ll have them play apart for a while, so after checking he’s ok and comforting him, she’ll come and do something quietly close to me (a jigsaw or colouring at the dinner table while I cook for example) and he’ll continue with whatever he was doing. Later on we’ll talk about how she was feeling and how she could handle it differently.

Depending on what form the violence has taken she might get a very firm telling off (sometimes her behaviour can be quite dangerous as opposed to childlike hitting and kicking), she needs to know that she’s crossed a clear boundary and is old enough to begin to understand that she could potentially really hurt her brother without meaning to.

Her behaviour has natural consequences too, if she hurts her brother he doesn’t want to play with her, and while I’ll encourage them to make up, I don’t force him to be around her if he does t want to. He’ll tell her that she’s hurt him and will do his own thing for a while. I certainly won’t force him to give her a cuddle, but he does need to say hello, goodbye, goodnight nicely (I too find a high five a good alternative to hugs if he’s not in the mood).

We do a lot of work on good relationships, kindness etc with both children. It’s very hard work though and I can’t pretend that sometimes Im not hanging on to my patience by a thread, and sometimes I don’t manage patience at all. No one tells you how bloody difficult it is to be calm and measured with one child while your other child is screaming or bleeding or bruised because they’ve been hit. However you manage it, we all can only do our best at the time.

Thank you, everyone, this has been very helpful. There's been another spat between the two of them, thankfully no hitting. They were playing a game in the garden together and DD1 kept getting upset that DD2 was getting more goes, as she saw it. She couldn't just enjoy playing with her sister. It's very sad. DD2 was just happily playing.

It isn't sad, OP, it is just something you have to (or someone else has to) work on with her, to help her, now.

Also recognise they are at different stages of development, going through different things. Also the younger one grows, there will be different dynamics.

Flair enough, I meant I felt sad, because it should have just been fun. DD1 just worries about whether she's being treated fairly rather than just enjoying the nice weather in the garden. But you're right, and we are pushing for her therapy to happen. She's not a priority with the Post Adoption Support team, because she behaves well at school and isn't 2 years behind, so she doesn't qualify for an ECHP. She just isn't seen as a priority.

I am sorry that you are low priority for help that must be very frustrating.

Things can change over time.

A real positive from all this is that your dd2 is doing well at school and elsewhere. If she is obsessed with fairness at home, I suppose the lesson that life is not fair is a hard one to take at first and something she is still struggling with?

In relation to games, maybe practice letting her lose games with you, practice things not always being fair, talk about things not always being fair, talk about how she is feeling and to name the emotions, and help her realise gradually that by feeling the uncomfortable feelings and naming them she will become emotionally stronger and will be able to manage the feelings better as time goes on.

In relation to the book for parents about their children making friends I mentioned, what it basically says is that some children pick up social cues naturally and some do not. Those that don't, if you teach them the social cues in plain words they then start to "get it" ie (all things being equal, children with severe asd need extra help but I don't think that applies to your dc?). Their behaviour then changes over time and they start to get more positive responses from others, and it all builds upon itself to the child being more adept and happier, and so less in need of constant bolstering up. But it takes time and a lot of effort and patience and it may happen slowly over months or years depending.

Another psychologist recommends dealing with violent or other outbursts with the following strategies:

• when the child is in the throws of being unhappy, either complaining or hitting out, talk about feelings, empathise, show compassion (though making sure a child who has been hit is also priority as they have been hit)
• talk about appropriate behaviour when calm (this talking, talking, talking, outlining exactly what is and what isn't ok (over and over) along with lots of 1:1 and time and attention generally is supposed to be much more effective than sanctions)
• sooth the child at all times, and teach the child to sooth themselves
• be compassionate to everybody in your own behaviour at all times so that the child models, talk about being kind and fair and choices in general terms.

(I find the first point and the bit about being compassionate to everyone quite hard to remember all the time, especially in the heat of the moment!).

Update for anyone who is interested. We now have a key worker from Post Adoption Support and she's keen to get the ball rolling, which is encouraging. DD1's class teacher has been very helpful too, having read the therapist's report from 2 years ago!!?? It had been sitting in a drawer in the school office, despite the fact that DD1 had been a Child in Need, which is most frustrating,.

DD1 still struggles socially. They do provide her with a buddy at play time, which is obviously helpful, as she's not alone or muscling in on DD2 and her friends. But it doesn't stop her being isolated at other times. At Sports Day, she found it hard to find a place to sit down whilst waiting for her go, as she would be told the seat was being saved for someone else.

But what she finds hardest is that she still hasn't been invited anywhere for a play date and she has no party invitations. DD2 has had 2 party invitations recently and been invited to a play date, so DD1 is feeling very left out. It's led to her lashing out and hurting her sister (it's obviously no excuse), and expressing her anger by throwing things and trashing rooms.

Getting her to settle down at night is really hard work as well, she never gets to sleep before 10.30pm.

We desperately need the therapy to start soon.

Are there any nice parents in your daughter's year? I'd feel so sad if there was a girl feeling like this in my daughter's year. I'd happily invite her for a play date if her mum told me she was struggling like that and talk to my (fairly mature) daughter about how important it is to be inclusive especially if people are struggling. Might be a terrible idea but it's heartbreaking to think of her feeling rejected by her peers.

Our school is quite hot on things like saving seats and I don't think they'd have allowed that to happen on sports day - I'm glad that she is starting to have more support, I hope it helps.

OP, the changes at school and with adoption support sound good, though the seat saving doesn't sound good at all! I wonder if dd2 has been slightly luckier with her year group.

Just out of curiosity did the book I recommended help at all, did you do any of the activities in it at home with dd1, or use the other strategies, and did the videos help at all, or did you decide it was best to wait for therapy? I was going to post to ask that, and how things were going, in fact.

I think @ladyme's idea sounds lovely, if there are some similar sounding parents.

Thank you for the helpful posts. Our DDs do have friends they play with out of school, who live near to us. The problem is that DD2 goes, too, and DD1 then ends up on the outside. I have tried so hard to arrange play dates for her on her own, but it's been really hard going. She has a friend from Brownies who she has had play dates with, but obviously that doesn't help her with integrating at school.

The problem is that she gets very upset if the children she's playing with don't play the game that she wants to play. She storms off and sulks. I try and talk her into joining in with what the others are playing, but she isn't able to compromise at all.

I'm hoping that the therapy will help with this, but I know it won't be a miracle cure.

I find all this really sad, because I was that child who always ended up on her own. I don't like to think of DD1 going through it.

It’s ok to feel sad about it - some of the challenges my kids have do mahe me feel sad for them. We need to find a way through, but its perfectly fine to have an emotional response to it too.

Im glad some suppprt is finally on the horizon, hopefully it’ll be helpful. Have you got support for you? I’ve found being in therapy myself incredibly helpful especially where my DCs experience touches on something I struggle with anyway. It’s given me someone to talk to who can help me separate out what is my feeling about my situation from what I’m reacting to in my kids and gives me space to know my own mind in a very busy week. Worth looking at if you’re not already seeing someone.

Thank you, @Jellycatspyjamas yes I've had therapy before, to help me come to terms with my own past, there are a lot of things I need to deal with from my childhood (I've talked about the abuse I suffered elsewhere).

For the moment, I've parked it up, as I need to focus on supporting DD1. I can't deal with anything else right now.

I also thank you, @brightsunshineatlast I confess I haven't read the book, but I've been trying to teach her to read social cues, by arranging play dates, she just doesn't get it as she struggles to see beyond herself. I'm hoping the therapy will help her with this.

Basically I've been waiting for the therapy to start.

What kind of therapy is it?

It's theraplay. She'll also be having psychometric testing, as she had a head injury as a baby, which has left her needing glasses and hearing aids.

Sorry, I wasn’t meaning therapy to go into your own history, more to support you in how that impacts your parenting now - I too worked through my own historical stuff before adopting my two but therapy has helped me understand my reactions to what happens with my kids and gives space to think things through with an impartial other.

Thank you for that, @Jellycatspyjamas it's certainly something I'll look into. For the moment, I'm feeling emotionally drained more than anything else. I'd like to actually feel like I'm enjoying our life rather than just surviving day by day. I do love my DDs to bits, of course, though.

I've supported both my dc through therapy; DS was very complex (phobia, PTSD, survivor guilt and grief issues), DD less so (trauma and phobia). With DS, in particular, I needed a lot of help so that I could help him through the process, things definitely got worse before they got better...but they DID get better.

I would also suggest that you have an age-appropriate chat with your DD2 about her sister having treatment, it was helpful for our DD to understand that when her brother went to see the special doctor he could really struggle that night (we described it as being like the nasty aftertaste of medicine but that it lasted longer). It helped her understand to give him space, it also helped generally for her to understand that her brother was trying to get better.

I wish your DD1 every luck with her therapy and

Hi OP, just popping in to suggest audio books for bedtime? My DS (11) was a nightmare for not settling despite lots of story time, cuddles etc. now he has a huge library of audio books. 1 disc on and he lies there calmly to listen. It's revolutionised bedtime! :)