Ver negative and easily upset son!

[Italiangreyhound]

Hi all, advice needed, please.

We have some ongoing issues with DS, he is the world's worst moaner!

He is so miserable at times and it is very frustrating. I really think it is going to make life harder for him, and i wish I could help him find his inner optimist! Is that possible?

mybloodykitchen, I have to admit that I personally find it hard to relate to your example because I am not self expressive in public, but that aside I think your example was of someone who very much needed comforting (in which case public or not the right thing to do is comfort) whereas I was thinking more of discussions which take place with a child when a child is calm. In relation to teaching social skills to a child it would most definitely not be about making anyone feel like an arsehole. I am really sorry if that is how you read it. I really do also think that being aware of other people's views and feelings can help build confidence and self esteem, though again I might be totally wrong.

The reason why I am not self expressive in public is because I am aware that the people around me may also be struggling, and I would not want to burden them or upset them with my stuff. But that is just me, obviously, and I am not suggesting that I am right.

I think that giving more comfort and tlc and creating a safebase is always a good thing, so I agree with you there. I will also look at the website.

familyvonstrop, I do agree that considering things from an adoption perspective would be important where there as been a change,
but I also think it is important to also consider other reasons why a 5 year old's behaviour has changed - such as bullying at school, or inappropriate behaviour by an adult, or possibly just the developmental stage as the child starts to assimilate all that they have experienced in the previous year etc, plus if a child is very able and strong willed they are going to be seriously pushing the boundaries at this age, and so it might be a personality thing which would need slightly different handling from something adoption related. Keeping it exclusively adoption related might mean other things go unnoticed. I might be stating the obvious there, sorry if so, and I might be completely wrong.

But if the child is asking to be 'babied' that would at least give one pause to think that they were experiencing strong emotions.

Are you an adopter combined? I don't think you've said.

Hi Italian Sorry to come to this late but what you describe sound so familiar. I am special guardian to my nephews - one is 5.5, been with us 22 months, the youngest in the family. Similar behaviours: dramatic full frontal falling to the floor "I can't walk", moaning about everyday tasks & easy crying. Even the cooling down thing - I wonder if it is the lower temperature or just introducing change of any kind? Now mostly replaced by 180 degree turn I CAN DO IT MYSELF. Main difference is as guardians we got no training or advice so muddled through on our own trying out different things.

We have tried:

– babying him when asked, and actually just before he asks e.g. spoon-feeding him towards the end of a meal; wrapping him in a blanket & rocking while watching TV or after a bath; hair brushing. Often I suggest it in a lighthearted way which allows him to say he doesn't need it.

– emphasising the passage of time, not directly focussed on behaviour, so he can see his journey through time (took me a while to get to this) e.g. height charts; photographs on the wall at different ages; looking backwards & forwards to events (e.g. remember when you started in Reception you couldn't do your shoes up and now you can). So not pushing him to grow up, which I think is a problem for him, but allowing him to grow up

– giving him jobs that he wants to do to as motivation to get beyond the flashpoint - e.g. getting dressed was all "hands not working" so now the deal is once he is dressed he can do two jobs he carved out for himself: opening all the curtains in the house and putting out everyone's medication & vitamins by their place at the breakfast table. Telling him how much I value him doing it etc.

– (linked to this above) equipping him with skills in the problem areas - kind of anti-babying e.g. getting upstairs at bedtime can be lying down "can't walk", so I showed how to run the bath himself & measure out the bubble bath (OK not 100% foolproof)

• subtlely encouraging cheery attitude & discouraging negative by responding more to cheery ways of doing things (as everyone else has said)

• having his Year 1 friends home to play - quite an eye-opener - most of them are quite capable of moaning and adopting baby behaviour too. I mean this seriously. One of them tells me he doesn't have to flush the toilet, I should do it for him, as that is what happens at home!! At the age of 6!!!

– remembering last 2-3 weeks of every term are tough for everyone

– working out the times I find these behaviours most irritating is when I am feeling under pressure, having too many competing demands on me. I was brought up to be independent and just get on with things so at times I find his moaning just sounreasonable. It took me about 18 months to work that out (doh!) & I still try to spot it in myself at the time rather than after

I think the 2nd & 3rd worked best over time (passage of time; giving him prized jobs)

Or maybe, just maybe, he grew up a bit, and over the time he has been with me I have learned to chill out a bit...

I hope this isn't all bleeding obvious.

copyrighted it - it is a good example.

That's fine, we can agree to disagree or simply disagree. It's all fine.

re I think there are a lot of lurkers here who use this board as a place to think stuff through without necessarily posting and I think it's important that people remember PACE and to be unconditional and attachment focused with our children. That's very good advice.

Please say more about PACE (Yes, I know what it is, but always good to be reminded, for me and the lurkers, if you don't mind)

Re I don't always get that right btw - I don't think anyone does. I'm not advocating perfect parenting! No, neither do I, no surprises there!

I am very much in favour of learning from things, I might not agree with someone today and I might agree tomorrow, talking, sharing and learning is what I want to do, not judge anyone. So if anything I say comes across as judgemental, that is not my intention.

combined re seriously pushing the boundaries at this age I think my ds is a tiny bit pushing boundaries, like being very chatty at school. Actually, one thing I really liked was that his teacher understood this and both his foundation and Year 1 teacher have felt that him doing stuff like chatting when not supposed to at school was a good thing.

One thing that I am wondering about is why now, he's been very settled until now and I am just not sure if there is a reason for this behaviour now (I must stress it is not all the time by any means).

Just as an update today he was coming down the stairs and he needed his dressing gown done up. I usually say not to do it on the stairs, because of tripping not concentrating etc. So I said to come down and I would do it, and he said something like 'Mummy I need help!" So I went straight away and did it and he calmed down pretty much immediately. I do think I am being too harsh with him expecting him to do stuff because he has done it in the past (and in the past seemed to take pleasure in being able to do it). Maybe he needs to know I will help him if he needs it, and of course I will.

...if the child is asking to be 'babied' One of the things that was quite interesting in my ds's case was that it was not clear he needed to be 'babied' at first. It took some thinking about and it was very helpful to read examples here. Some of the behaviour seemed quite random and to be fair to me, (not that I need others to be fair to me but to explain) ds did not always seem to want my help.

hackneyLass - brilliant ideas, thank you. I did do the wrapping and snuggling after bath but after about a year ds seemed to stop liking it and seemed to want to not be so cuddled so much. However if the cuddling is accompanied by tickling or back massage or 'a dot and a dash' on the back (ask me if you don't know what this is), then he is very happy for me to do it. He does still want cuddles but he likes to ask for them!

Re – emphasising the passage of time, not directly focussed on behaviour, so he can see his journey through time (took me a while to get to this) e.g. height charts; photographs on the wall at different ages; looking backwards & forwards to events (e.g. remember when you started in Reception you couldn't do your shoes up and now you can). So not pushing him to grow up, which I think is a problem for him, but allowing him to grow up

Very interesting, we don't do much of this but we do talk a lot about things that he did when he first came and memories of him with us, he joins in so when dd said we always have this tinsel on the pairing at Christmas, and ds said something like we always have silver tinsel on the tree, even though this only his second Christmas with us! It felt very special when he said that, like he really feels at home, which of course he should as it is his home!

Re - subtlely encouraging cheery attitude & discouraging negative by responding more to cheery ways of doing things (as everyone else has said) I am trying to do this. I must admit maybe my 'negative-radar' is too finely tuned, I need to chill out, if he is negative so be it! Hvaing a few other negative people in the wider family has kind of made me dread the negative comments and when he started crying and complaining when he was given a present this Christmas, well, I hold my hands up, that was plain old embarrassment!

We try and do a play date once in a while, I think in last three months we have had about five short play dates, so that is only about once every three weeks but it is certainly enough to see that all kids get stroppy and upset. It is the intensity of ds's sometimes melt-downs that worried me. I think distraction is a good idea, that does sometimes work for us.

Re – working out the times I find these behaviours most irritating is when I am feeling under pressure, having too many competing demands on me. I was brought up to be independent and just get on with things so at times I find his moaning just sounreasonable. It took me about 18 months to work that out (doh!) & I still try to spot it in myself at the time rather than after

Yes, excellent point, I know it is meal times and when we are trying to leave the house.

It's obvious but only when you point it out!

It is all so true for us.

But I must also say ds has some stirring moments of being really amazing, I love him whether things are good or bad, but when things are bad for him I do feel very sorry for him, and for me and for all of us, because it is distressing. But even that is a teachable moment because I can express how much I love him even when things are 'going wrong' and of course I do.

Thanks one and all, feeling much better, glad I posted about this.

Re the passage of time

My DD loves this. Loves looking at photos of when she was 'a baby' (a nearly 4yo baby, but nevertheless...), talking about the sounds she couldn't say so how she said some things funny, and how she couldn't reach the taps, couldn't even read her own name etc. Loves it.

Will actively seek out opportunities to make us do it with her. 'Mum, remember when I was a tiny little baby and I couldn't even...'

tldr that is so lovely. I do think it is good to affirm those early days. I told ds about the first day he came to live with us, I think he had forgotten. He looked happy.

Whoops, that was totally posted in the wrong please! Sorry.

It is the intensity of ds's sometimes melt-downs that worried me.

That, to me, is indicative that there's something big going on, particularly when considered alongside his inability to regulate temperature etc. Distracting etc might work to help recover a situation or bring him back from the brink, but I do think you need to keep looking for the source of the problem.

If it's new it might well be that honeymoon is over and he feels safe enough to let his mask slip a bit. Or it might be with end of term tiredness he's not able to keep the mask in place.

I think someone suggested it up thread but Amber Elliot's 'why can't my child behave' is excellent. It really reinforced what I already knew, but helped me see it more clearly.

If your LA is useful, when you speak to them, I think you really need to focus on the Big Stuff when you describe the problems. You've revealed bits and pieces over numerous posts, but I don't think you had them straight in your head when you started this thread.

1. really intense meltdowns
2. inability to regulate temperature
3. refusal to ....

re particularly when considered alongside his inability to regulate temperature etc. I wonder if this could be a medical thing? This is a relatively new feature. It does not happen much, three or four times at most in last few months.

but I do think you need to keep looking for the source of the problem.
yes I will.

Will look into Amber Elliot's 'why can't my child behave' but is it about children who can't behave at all, because ds is really very normal in behaviour a lot of the time. He just kind of 'loses it' sometimes.

You've revealed bits and pieces over numerous posts, but I don't think you had them straight in your head when you started this thread. You are right, I did not. It was talking about them that helped me see. And posters saying they too had experienced this has been so helpful.

I think I would reorder those...

1. refusal to ....
2. really intense meltdowns - sometimes goes floppy etc/cries etc
3. sometimesgoes very red, not sure if he has an inability to regulate temperature, but certainly does get hot sometimes (goes red) etc
4. doesn't want help, sometimes does etc/

many thanks tldr must go to bed now, night all.

Oh last thing tldr I would also say when he does have some sort of meltdown, he sometimes gets upset if I try to hug him and then he may complain about my hurting his foot or finger or whatever if I lean in towards him to give a hug or kiss, He sort of becomes hyper sensitive. This makes it hard to show him how much I care as he seems to reject it. I know I need to preserver but it does make it difficult when it seems unwanted.

not meaning to drip feed. I am literally thinking it through as I post and as I read what others have said. When it happens it is all a bit of a blur and I need to think afterwards, what happened!

These do happen around meal times, sometimes around telly going off. I am now watching to see when else it happens, like I say it is a blur and I can think 'what started all that'!

Night all and many thanks.

but is it about children who can't behave at all

No, not at all, but it explains beautifully simply why the parenting techniques we use on other DC may not work on ADC.

I've not made it to the end yet but I'm assured it offers alternative techniques!

Based on absolutely zero expertise and not knowing you or your son, I would say enjoy the madness of end of term, Christmas and NY and do a rain check in the new year : )

It sounds as though you are doing a great job. And I do think this time of year can be a bit overwhelming for everyone with children at times! But the holiday is a rest too.

I think the intense meltdowns you're describing sound like periods of being very "dysregulated" in terms of emotions and attachment - Amber Elliott is brilliant about explaining the how and why of this, and how to respond empathically while also taking care of yourself, as tldr says. If you try and say the book title out loud putting the emphasis on "can't" you will get a better idea of its focus - it's about the WHY of what's going in adopted children's brains, and the impact it has, and how this comes out as different behaviour to children who haven't had problematic early experiences. It is not at all saying they are "misbehaving" - it's more of a translation of slightly unusual behaviour, and some ways to respond to it in a nurturing way.

tldr thanks for the comments, and for the help.

combined02 re enjoy the madness of end of term, Christmas and NY and do a rain check in the new year : ) Yes good idea.

Re It sounds as though you are doing a great job. Thank you, I guess sometimes it feels I am and sometimes not. These last few months have been so mixed but ds is mostly quite happy and very loving with me and very much seems at home and totally as he belongs, which he does, of course.

mydutiful re If you try and say the book title out loud putting the emphasis on "can't" you will get a better idea of its focus that makes sense, the title sounded more like 'Why can't my child BEHAVE'! But it's more of a translation of slightly unusual behaviour, and some ways to respond to it in a nurturing way. that sounds excellent. Thank you

Hello IGH - I'm afraid I don't have any wise words, but a lot of what you describe with your DS could be me talking about my DD, who is a little older than DS (but not much).

Until about three weeks ago, DH and I were nearing the end of our tethers with her, because her behaviour with us was so challenging:

• refusal to do pretty much anything we asked, particularly on the school run
• refusal to eat anything beyond a very limited range of food
• shouting, screaming, foot stamping... Proper meltdowns, often in public. I have lost count of the number of places I have whisked her out off blushing furiously and wishing I didn't have to go back there ever again
• but behaving like an absolute angel at school and with any other adults...

For DD, things always come back to control: she has to feel that she is in charge of making her own decisions, and transitions - particularly where she is going through a process with others, such as the start of school, the start of the ballet class - are especially hard for her, we think because she feels momentarily out of control and struggles to get back into the mental zone where she feels relaxed again.

I can't quite work out what has happened recently that has had the biggest impact (probably a combination of things?), but right now (touch wood etc etc) she is really adorable with occasional, completely "normal" child behaviour. Things we have tried or done (and note, I am not advocating them all!!!):

• relentless cheeriness: "I know, life is hard isn't it, but it won't get better sitting on the wet pavement, come on silly sausage, let's try walking again!"
• relentless affirmation: "I know you say you hate me and I'm the worst mother in the world, but I love you very much and I always will, and I try to be a good mummy as much as I can"
• being completely relaxed about food: "OK, if you think you only need to eat three peas for dinner, that's fine, just sit quietly at the table while we finish eating please"
• always offering a choice of what to eat: "pasta or rice?"
• leaving as much time as possible for transitions, and taking her through them step by step: counting down 20 / 10 / 5 mins before we have to leave, for example, along with the things she has to do eg getting her shoes on
• letting her know her behaviour is unacceptable: once DH told her that if she continued pushing away everyone who loves her she would end up very lonely, and that seemed to really hit home - she sobbed and sobbed, and eventually said that she didn't want to be lonely and she wanted people to like her
• seeing us upset: the obvious trigger for me was when she shouted that she wished she was still with BM and I wasn't her real mother, which was going to come at some point in her life we just weren't expecting it quite yet... I don't think she had ever seen me cry properly before, and it was a shock to her to see me like that

Sorry for the rambling post. I guess what I'm trying to say is that trying to be upbeat and positive despite what is happening is what we aim for everyday, and mostly it works and DH and I have different triggers and flashpoints and often tag-team it to manage a meltdown. But sometimes a crisis can be helpful to flush things out and showing some vulnerability yourself isn't necessarily completely unhelpful.

Good luck - I hope things get better, especially going into Christmas

Oh - one more thing!! DS might be a bit young, but we found the film "Inside Out" fantastic for talking about emotions and helping DD to understand that everyone feels anger, fear, joy etc. We say things like "I hope Anger isn't coming out too much today, why has Joy gone away?" and DD really engages - thank you Pixar!

Thanks ChristineDePisan great thoughts.

We did see Inside out when it came out and I can find clips on line. We can talk about it, he does like talking, but only when clam, of course, so maybe we need to try talking after the flare up.

Thanks

DD pumped some cold air over ds with the foot pump tonight and that seemed to help.

Italian, I've been wondering whether to contribute to this thread, because it's very hard to know what line to take. At your son's age, and his stage of adoption, there might be lots of things going on. I think fasparent might be right in suggesting that this is the end of the honeymoon period. I think Maryz might be right that some children just have a negative setting (my birth child, for example). I liked freshoutofluck's suggestion that it is attachment-seeking behaviour. The posts from ButtonMoonLoon, mybloodykitchen and thefamilyvonstrop were really good, I think. If you'll forgive me, I think you (understandably) reacted a little defensively to the discussion of shaming, but now that's over, I wonder if you should read back their posts to make sure you get their other points.

Very often, we're in the position of not knowing whether we're dealing with a normal personality trait, a symptom of trauma, a legacy of drugs and alcohol in utero, etc. All of us want to respond to adoption-related stuff while not pathologising our children and seeing their history of trauma as the key to EVERYTHING. None of us know what is going on with your son.

But I will just say that for the first three years after my daughter joined us, I thought that she was unscathed by her experiences. And now - well, as you know I've been pretty much on my knees. Her grief and anger and despair is huge, and I'm having to face up to the fact that my parenting has not been good enough and I have failed her in lots of ways. I'm not saying this in any beat-myself-up die-of-guilt way: it's hard to know what's going on with a child who is not telling you or showing you, and when she was 3 her behaviour seemed normal for 3 (i.e like a little wild animal!). It's just that she's still 3 in terms of emotional development, and finally able to talk to me about her grief, and her disregulation is becoming increasingly marked and problematic. So here I am, doing the therapeutic parenting training that I no doubt should have done years ago, desperate for new tools because conventional parenting techniques are simply not working for us anymore.

I'm not saying that what happened to me will happen to you. Just that it may be months or years before you get clarity in what is going on with your son right now. So keep an open mind, keep learning (you're very good at this, of course), keep PACE-ing.

(Incidentally, I was on a therapeutic parenting course yesterday where there was a long discussion of shaming adopted children. I found it almost unbearably uncomfortable - I have had many unfinest hours in this regard. Happy to discuss if you want to know more!)

Devora you say you're happy to discuss. You may just mean with IGH of course :)

But if you were willing (and I know it's not easy) would you be able to say what you think your dd would have benefited from when she was younger? Even a very condensed version.

I feel I'd be an idiot not to ask for someone's reflective hindsight when I have a 2 yo ac :)

Devora thank you for posting. Yes, I am a little defensive at times, and yes, I am most definitely not a perfect parent.

To some degree ds has been a surprise in that he is very grown up and 'together' for a boy who has experienced his start in life, and also that he is very young in year. And yes, maybe he appears more together than he really is.

I was prepared for him not to be, together, but from the start he was very much quite a calm boy and yet not so calm as to be 'suspicious'. I mean by that he was very upset to leave his foster carer, just the sort of reactions one would hope for, attached to her and spoke about her a lot, but also able to begin to attach to us or at least bond with us (all of us, even dd) quite quickly.

As you know dd has been so difficult at times that ds, by comparison, really was very 'easy' to parent. He is often really easy to love too, and I quickly felt very at home with him, and he seemed to feel very at home with us.

It is very hard to know if this is attachment related, it really does not feel so. But of course there is always the chance to 'delude' oneself.

Devora I would be very happy for you to share any examples you feel able to share publicly or by p.m. or to call me sometime.

My reason for being defensive was partly that I felt what I had said had been misrepresented ... as you say but now that's over I probably should re-read what people wrote at that time because there is nothing like feeling you have been misunderstood to make you not really take on board what people say, and that won't help me or ds, and what I want most of all is to help ds.

I also feel that getting hot or over heated seems to be a factor for ds and sometimes distraction seems to help him not have a meltdown, (like tonight, he is dragging an orange foot pump around the house and calling it 'Picachu'! DD gave him a blast of cold air with it and he calmed right down, then he had to give her a blast of cold air, etc, and suddenly he was a fair bit calmer. BUT if there are issues going on under the surface, if I avoid a meltdown, am I just avoiding the issue??

It's tough!

I'm so sad to hear things are difficult with your dd but hoping for the best always, and that this new course will give you new tools and new insights you can use, and I hope share!

Bless you, Italian.

Just re-reading Maryz's advice. Brilliant advice, I think.

What you mustn't do is take it personally, and that's where my "detach" advice comes in for parents. And when I say detach, I don't mean distance yourself or stop loving them, I mean deal with the actions unemotionally and use emotion outside of those scenarios. So lots of love, touching, hugs regardless of their behaviour, but keep yourself emotionally detached from the extreme stuff. Don't blame yourself, feel guilty, second guess yourself. And remember, they may be doing it for attention, but they don't actually know that.

Ok, off to bed, I have re-read almost everything and yes I was very defensive.

School is a real issue for me, because although not bullied, I hated school, and dd has struggled with school. Ds, ironically, seems to do pretty well with school and seems to love it!

Ironically, I think what I have done (on occasion) is to shame ds myself at home, nothing to do with school, as I say school is not (thankfully) our problem. And so one of the problems has been in the form of my expecting him to be able to cope with his meltdowns better. I realise how heartless this sounds, and I am not at all proud of it, I am very sad. I am going to change how I deal with the meltdowns.

Interestingly, if we had not got onto the subject of school I wonder if the subject of 'shame' would have come up in the same way?? So although it has not always been easy to read everyone's comments I do feel it has been very helpful for me, so thank you all so much.