Ver negative and easily upset son!

[Italiangreyhound]

Hi all, advice needed, please.

We have some ongoing issues with DS, he is the world's worst moaner!

He is so miserable at times and it is very frustrating. I really think it is going to make life harder for him, and i wish I could help him find his inner optimist! Is that possible?

I think the others are right. Sometimes our views of what others will think is actually what we think/what we fear others will think of us.
I try incredibly hard not to say how lo is behaving from an adult perspective (eg being a baby) because he's actually being lo and how lo feels at the time.
Italian do you think he wants to be held/comforted? This time of year children particularly littlie's are so worn out from school. Do you think he's just tired? Totally agree in the mornings when you need to get out it can be very frustrating though!
Does the chart work for ds? We have a family one to record kind things we do but I know it would stress lo out if it was a "how well are you doing,if you're not doing well enough you won't get x"

Well mybloodykitchen, to be fair, tldr didn't ask for my opinion, I was just voicing it!

Re And that conversation can so easily be understood as 'your friends will think you're a baby'

I said "... your class mates may see. If they see, they might think you are behaving much younger than you really are."

It doesn't mean I think the child is a 'baby' or that it is wrong to be a 'baby' and actually I said "... they might think you are behaving much younger than you really are"

That is totally true.

And I kind of agree with you, sometimes it is us who worry more than other kids... I said I was worried that she [my dd] would get called names, but she is not and was not, so I was worrying about nothing, but I concluded ... but it was still right to tell her. (I should have added, IMHO.)

That would be bizarrely introspective. yes it would!!

thefamilyvonstrop IMHO this is not just about feelings, it is about how we express feelings. Sometimes the way we express feelings can get us into trouble with our peers, like hitting and screaming and crying a lot. This kind of behaviour can be very much accepted in all children of pre school age. As they get older I think that it does become harder. I do think it is possible to affirm a child's feelings while also letting them know how that MIGHT be perceived by others.

Just speaking for my DS, he is Year one and as I said several kids get quite upset and cry when parents try to leave, if this is the action it would not be out of place in my ds's school for Year 1. At home my ds has done a thing where he flays on the floor howling. If we had that at school I do think other kids would react and it might have negative implications for ds. As I say, just my humble opinion and tldr didn't ask for my opinion!

Fresh re Only once has another child asked me "Fresh's Mummy, why do you stay and join in sometimes?" They were curious, not judging. I totally agree with that approach, ds went to school late in that he did not start until January and then only part time until Easter, because he was allowed to by law (due to his age). But we had a bit of a struggle getting them to allow it! I certainly do think that they need what they need and if it is good to give them that. Ironically now, as I say, there are several kids crying as parents leave (at least one or two each day sometimes!) and not my ds!

Delilabel re Italian do you think he wants to be held/comforted? we are a very touchy feely family, he gets lots of hugs and kisses and tickling. I notice he doesn't always want to be kissed if I ask him "Can I kiss you" but if I just kiss him he is fine.

Delilabel Re This time of year children particularly littlie's are so worn out from school. Do you think he's just tired? Yes, I do, he gets quite ihot and flustered but will not change into a T-shirt etc. Today he wanted to lie on the sofa with the fan on (in December!) so of course I let him.

Today was totally different, happy chappy, lots of fun, put up the tree. I said 'why were you so miserable and grumpy [I can't remember exact words but that was basically it] yesterday and are so happy today?" He said because we put up the tree today!

Oh dear that is a once a year job!

Delilabel Re Totally agree in the mornings when you need to get out it can be very frustrating though! it can be because it is almost like the slightest thing one day, but the next he is fine!

Delilabel Re Does the chart work for ds? I am not sure it is a big thing for him, I am not mad keen on sticker charters for all the usual reasons, but I do feel for some kids they work. They certainly work at school. The kids are most upset to go 'down the tree' or whatever!

mybloodylitchen although I don't necessary agree with everything you said I will take it board and it is good to be reminded about not shaming! DS is fine at school but there are times when I may say things I should not at home, so it is good to be reminded about that!"

Italian, I feel I have to say that kids being upset at going down the tree (i.e not being seen to do well on the reward chart) doesn't mean it works or that the kids like it. In my mind it means those children who for whatever reason aren't doing 'well', are afraid of being seen to be failing/not as good. It's tantamount to public shaming IMHO.

For children who've been adopted, even a whiff of feeling like they're not good enough feeds into any issues surrounding attachment.

Plus, for any child I don't think fear driven rewards are a good teaching/training technique.

I said "... your class mates may see. If they see, they might think you are behaving much younger than you really are."

It doesn't mean I think the child is a 'baby' or that it is wrong to be a 'baby' and actually I said "... they might think you are behaving much younger than you really are"

I personally think this is too complex for a child to unpick and they would 'hear' the non verbal message behind the words. The fact that attention had been drawn towards the opinions/perceptions of the child's peers is reinforcing that those perceptions would be negative. And by default the child would understand the behaviour is wrong or shameful somehow.

FuckedOffMum I don't think the tree thing is fear driven, but I see your point. I'm not a huge fan of sticker charts, as I said before, but some kids do like them. My kids even requested one at home. We do it sometimes, sometimes not.

thefamilyvonstrop of course they may feel that. But the reality is that we have to bring our children up to live, survive and thrive in a society with others and some negative things can be very unhelpful for kids, IMHO. As a parent I must judge what is 'OK' and what is not. My son often wears his trousers back to front, that's his choice. No one minds. If he chose not to wear trousers at all I would have to tell him it was not OK. If my son were behaving at school as he sometimes does at home I think he would alienate his class mates quite quickly, maybe not permanently, but maybe temporarily. I would want to protect him from that. It's just my opinion and it is not an issue for us at all.

PS we do tell our kids quite a lot that some of their behaviour is wrong and should not be done. By we I mean most parents. Things little hitting, shouting, not doing the things asked to do, doing things asked not to do, hiding food (not my son by adopted), writing on walls etc. It does not mean the child is wrong or bad, it's just some behaviour is destructive or unhelpful. Not the emotions behind the behaviour but some of the behaviour.

Anyway, as I say, just my opinion.

... things like hitting not little hitting!

Italian, it strikes me that you parent both of your children in the same way -is that correct?
Adopted children, and all children who have experienced loss, separation and any kind of trauma need a very different kind of parenting at e very least some of the time, and in my child's case, pretty much all of the time.
In saying this, I'm quite sure that you know this from your adoption preparation training by the way, so please don't think I'm assuming that you don't!
But, from your posts, I'm not getting the impression that you differentiate the parenting that your son receives in the way that he might need sometimes. The language and strategies used are really very crucial, and so so much of that universally used just isn't attachment friendly or appropriate for our children. Have you had any therapeutic parenting input or training?

Age is irrelevant a lot of the time. Regression is not just accepted for our children but actively encouraged, because this is what they need, being frank, sod what anybody else, adult or child thinks of how my child presents. I saw a seven year old have a meltdown in the playground at school the other day. His Dad picked him up, cradled him and carried him to a quiet corner of the playground. The only looks I saw from adults were kind 'aww' kind of ones. And the other children didn't bat an eyelid. My child knows that she can be who and how she feels she needs to be, and I help her to find strategies that will help her to outwork her feelings appropriately. We use the Box of Feelings, we do a lot of therapeutic work at home and this is replicated at school. I don't give a shit what other people think of what we do, because the most important thing is that it meets her needs.

Have you considered doing the SafeBase training? I think that it might rally help you and your family.

I agree that certain behaviours need boundaries - you use the example of hitting, inappropriate dress etc. I agree, we need to protect children from harm to themselves and others so we manage the behaviours.
However I'm talking about the emotions behind the behaviours and not shaming those feelings. So anger is a feeling - it's ok to be angry and everyone feels anger. But I don't agree that his babying/negative feelings are similar to the examples you said about needing boundaries. It's not hurting himself or others. It's not making him unsafe.

Your sons 'helplessness' could be regressive behaviours and are fairly common. It could be that his very competent presentation was an overdone strength (e.g. like we all do to an extent, he was "faking it till making it"). Now he feels safe, he is showing what he needs on a deep level. If you were too tell him that others might judge him for that, you are reinforcing the behaviour is wrong/shameful.

You mentioned upthread that you made a conscious decision to change your attitude. Could this be a trigger for you? I wonder if you set aside the feeling that negativity is wrong and that his helplessness could embarrass him, you might see it differently?

Great post ButtonMoonLoon We use the Box of Feelings too, I really like it.

Hmm, Italian, I don't know that I do teach my LO things are "wrong" - we have consequences if we do things that are "not kind", and those consequences tend to be things we do together so that they don't include shaming or rejecting. So when there was drawing on a piece of furniture, we talked about why it wasn't kind, and we took a wipe each and LO had to help me clean it all off (I didn't exactly put my back into it, so it took a while ). Then we had a cuddle.

I suppose I do teach that "we don't hit/kick etc" but in the context of "we don't hurt people and we don't hurt ourselves, let's be gentle". If it's in the context of LO struggling to handle strong emotions, especially when evidently driven by anxiety or fear, I do not try and stop them from shouting/ screaming/ clinging on etc. I comfort them; I don't tell them it's wrong. I tell them that big feelings are really hard for everyone, and I will help with those big feelings, and to take their time. It has happened in some of the least appropriate or comfortable places for me like a wedding, a packed bus etc. But it's really not about my feelings of being conspicuous - it's about being there to cuddle and comfort and soothe, and I really don't think other people (adults or children) have ever judged us for it.

When I read Italian's advice starting "I don't mind treating you like your baby brother or sister at home, ..." I read it as teaching social skills, rather than likely to invoke shame. I think it probably depends on the child - mine most definitely would understand what was being said - it goes along with "you can run amok at soft play (without hurting anyone) but not at the supermarket" and "if you thump your friends, they might not want to be your friends any more" and there is definitely no shaming involved. I am trying to teach my dc that their feelings are to be listened to, and can guide them, but that other people have feelings too, but also, in addition to and separate from this, about social skills. I am surprised that some of you think that this goes against adoption training?

Also, in terms of how other children see things, it does depend a bit on the school - at the school my dc are at now, staying as long as needed, comforting, babying - all would be totally acceptable and usual and would not attract staring or comments - the atmosphere is lovely - it is a standard state school but the staff are incredible. However, the school we were at last year - not so much - dc would have been literally ripped to shreds by the other children if they did anything "unusual" - we had to do a lot of work on bullying, which I was pretty naffed off about because I really did feel I was trying to teach things which were too adult for them but in fact they got it - they stopped letting the children get to them and brushed off the mean comments. Staff nowhere to be seen.

What did they say about self esteem on your training combined?

Combined, I agree it's closer to social skill "training" than behavioural - I used those examples as Italian mentioned them earlier.
But I do believe that a new behaviour like this, from a previously competent child coupled with his young age would make me approach it carefully from an adoption perspective than perhaps a typical social/development learning of a child with no trauma or background issues.
Shame is such a prevalent emotion in adoption research that I would not run the risk of triggering that response. I could be projecting though - I have a toddler with zero self feeding skills and although I worry endlessly through forums / research, I help my LO feed without any comment (sometimes helping to hold the spoon, other times feeding totally with a spoon depending on how my LO is that day). When we have had the "but your a big person now, you can do it", you aren't a baby" input from well meaning types (thanks dad!), my LO became angry and the meal ends up across my lap more often than not.

Let's imagine you're upset about something. Your husband comforts you with lots of cuddles and kisses. You are out somewhere and something triggers your sadness again. You turn to him but this time he pulls away and says 'not in front of other people honey. I don't want them all to think you are an arsehole '

Would you a. Feel comforted or b. Feel like an arsehole?

Now let's run the same scenario but add in that you have low self esteem to start off with...

This is a bit jumbled but I wanted to reply to everyone who kindly posted here. I hope I have replied to everything.

combined02 thank you that is definitely what I meant. I am not worried if ds goes mad at a wedding where he knows no one, who cares if my extended family think he is 'naughty' but if he had a total melt down a lot at school it would impact friendships in his class, which I do feel would potentially hurt ds.

I am so sorry to hear your school were not supportive and not helpful and there was bullying.

DS is fine at school but if he had the kind of melt downs at school he has had at home it would be very hard for him.

ButtonMoonLoon thanks for your advice. I parent my children in a way suitable to them. I have had a lot of input from a variety of sources, mainly things very 'adoption' friendly, some specifically about adoption and some not. I am always keen to know more and always keen to learn. My birth dd is not 'bog' standard by any means and I've had to learn strategies with her that are not of the 'Super Nanny' variety.

I am really not sure where you get the ideas you seem to have about my parenting from. Is this because I said the school uses a sticker chart and I sometimes do too? Sticker charts were specificall mentioned on two adoption parenting courses I did. They do not work for all kids and I am not a big fan but we do use them sometimes at my children's request!

Or because I said it was helpful for kids to know how others may interpret things. Maybe I have made it sound too harsh, I am certainly not into shaming my child or anyone else's child.

Of course I would deal with any thing in any way that is suitable for my child. And I would be delighted to know more about strategies. I would love to know about the SafeBase training, can you say more, please?

We have had some 'therapeutic parenting input' but not enough! clearly! I am always open to more and am considering looking into post adoption support again because of the behaviour that has flared up recently, it is something that has happened in the last bit of time and ds has been home over 18 months, so is relatively new for our experience of ds.

Familyvonstrop re However I'm talking about the emotions behind the behaviours and not shaming those feelings. I absolutely agree with you.

I think there is some confusion regarding behaviour - It's not hurting himself or others. It's not making him unsafe. Firstly, I think it was my comments to another poster which caused some posters to think I was being harsh, so just to be clear I was making comments about how behaviour at school might have a negative impact on the child in question, eg. if it was my child. I was not saying what anyone else should do.

Secondly some of ds's (my ds) behaviour is a bit unsafe because he is flopping down and could hit himself. So I am pretty watchful because it does concern me. I know children are quite tough but it does worry me, and I totally want to understand what is feeding into it because I would like to help him.

I totally agree with posters saying about giving him all the attention he needs etc.

However, if is quite difficult to do this because when he is 'fine' and 'happy' etc he does not appear to need a lot of extra care and then suddenly becomes really helpless, often at times when he is required to do something, get up the table for dinner, etc. Then he can't seem to 'hear' anything positive or helpful or loving. He is totally 'flustered' for want of a better word.

Re Your sons 'helplessness' could be regressive behaviours and are fairly common. It could be that his very competent presentation was an overdone strength (e.g. like we all do to an extent, he was "faking it till making it"). Now he feels safe, he is showing what he needs on a deep level. Yes very true.

But If you were too tell him that others might judge him for that, you are reinforcing the behaviour is wrong/shameful. I do not do that. But it could make things harder for him at school and it would seem fair to warn him about that. He is 5 and in Year one, I would not think of that with younger children but at school it can be difficult and it is the child who bears the brunt of that. Kids might shame a child at school. Much harder to control than a parent giving a child 'advice'. It is a desire to protect a child not to shame them.

Re You mentioned upthread that you made a conscious decision to change your attitude. Could this be a trigger for you? I wonder if you set aside the feeling that negativity is wrong and that his helplessness could embarrass him, you might see it differently?

Yes, you could be right. I probably need to set aside those feelings and just love him as he is doing it. I guess it has been quite hard as his responses have been very negative even to some nicer things then other times he is quite a happy chappy and fine. This has all happened quite suddenly after over a year here, I am not sure if it could be related to school being harder, e.g. this autumn he went into year one, and it is harder than foundation. or to adoption, it is so hard to know and I might never know but I agree it is about calming the fears and ensuring he knows he is loved. But therapeutic parenting goes beyond that and I would love to know more.

I think sometimes it can be very draining to deal with quite explosive outbursts and maybe I am getting sensitive to it. I know I need to be the grown up and the bigger person etc, of course, 100% but it can just be quite draining after a lot of effort to feel that things are going wrong, especially as other times they are great.

Fresh and Buttonmoon can you say more about the box of feelings, is this the thing where you put a spikey thing and a soft thing and lots of other things in a box and use them to talk about how you are feeling?

Fresh I think your idea of sharing the penalties for things is very good. Yes, we do that too. I think saying "wrong" and 'not kind' are quite similar. I don't use the word 'wrong' with ds or dd all the time at all, but I do tell them things they should not do and I would explain why, if I needed to. I would be more likely to use the phrase 'not kind or 'not nice' etc than wrong but we are still making distinctions between behaviour that is acceptable and unacceptable. At no point does this mean the person is unacceptable.

Fresh re I comfort them; I don't tell them it's wrong. I tell them that big feelings are really hard for everyone, and I will help with those big feelings, and to take their time. It has happened in some of the least appropriate or comfortable places for me like a wedding, a packed bus etc. But it's really not about my feelings of being conspicuous - it's about being there to cuddle and comfort and soothe, and I really don't think other people (adults or children) have ever judged us for it.

Yes, that is very important. I definitely do that and I definitely need to do more of that. I think ds has been so 'together' and calm that it has kind of taken me by surprise.

Familyvonstrap re I agree it's closer to social skill "training" than behavioural - I used those examples as Italian mentioned them earlier. which 'training' did you mean?

mybloodykitchen everything you are saying makes perfect sense. No one would argue with the example you have given and certainly not me.

ooerr, mini breakthrough! He started to get angry today at dinner and then I took him in the garden for one minute, it was cold and he liked it. I hugged and kissed him and said I love you (nothing new in that) and he calmed down! Cold air!

So busy answering posts, didn't think to update!

www.safebase.org.uk

Thank you Button have you accessed it. Can you share more, you can PM me if you would rather not talk about it on here.

Many thanks.

I thought it might be a useful analogy to show why it might be shaming. It's very tempting to point things out to our kids before their peers do. Particularly if you've ever been bullied yourself. I know i sometimes have to resist the urge.

My 5yo really isn't that bothered if no-one else will be dressed like that/acts like that. Sometimes I really need to remember that she's not me...

mybloodykitchen I can certainly see your point and I don't disagree that sometimes as parents we can be quick off the gun to say things, warn things, that are not necessary. I am sure I do that sometimes, and it is good to be reminded of that.

It is also good to be reminded about regressive parenting, or babying or whatever term we want to use 'between ourselves' not that I would use any of those terms to ds.

But I do stand by my original comment because I was not talking about a child wearing something unusual, I told you my son wears his trousers back to front (and odd socks - though he may get that from me!)

I was thinking of behaviour that might be extreme and may get a child alienated from his or her peers.

But I really feel that is not the same as a couple of adults in a relationship. To me it is like an adult knowing something that could have a risk or danger and not warning another adult or child (in an age appropriate way). So although your example would fit perfectly if I were talking about not giving him kisses or hugs or reassurance in front of other (I certainly do all that in front of others) I do feel that what I was talking about was something different.

Was that your example or did you read it somewhere (because it sounded familiar)? I read something a long time ago about how it feels to be first adopted (from overseas adoption) and it was likened to meeting a man (the man of your dreams) and getting married and then being separated from him and having a new man in your life etc etc. But not understanding where the original man of your dreams had gone, It was very powerful. It made me see a lot about adoption. It is always good to be reminded of these things. So your example was good and it does remind me that children really need affirmation all the time of how much we love and care for them, and we should never worry what others thing of us.

I was talking about how peers may perceive the child. This is not the same as strangers at a wedding, or in the street or the swimming pool etc - and I went to great pains to say that this was not necessarily how peers may feel. As adults we can also tell kids that the opinions of peers are not right etc, we don't need to be held hostage by other little kids, IMHO, but we can still be honest with kids. Age-appropriate honesty always feels best for me.

I was very lucky not to be bullied in any regular way, and neither was dd, but I guess it is a concern of mine. Maybe I am too concerned with it. As I say, at the moment this is not our issue. But I will keep thinking about all these things because as an imperfect parent I am sometimes influenced by others in a negative way, and what I want more than anything, is to do the best job of being mum to a little boy and a not so little girl!

I've emailed post adoption support to talk to them and see what we can do.

I also got to see one of ds's peers tonight on a play date and they both cried at different points, frustration, and me and the other mum and the kids all just accepted it. I think ds's 'meltdowns' are so much more than crying. He really gets very hot and flustered, which is why going in the garden was such a good idea. I don't know where it came from, just popped into my head.

I think all the comments on here have helped me to think about this in a new way, so thank you all so much.

It's my example. It didn't tax my brain to think of it though so I haven't copyrighted it :)

I think it is the same. I think it's shaming and I think a child hearing that will think not only that their peers might think they are a baby BUT that the parent saying it does too. PACE is all about acceptance of a child's emotions and needs and this isn't very accepting IMO.

If it seems as though I'm refusing to agree to disagree that's only because I think there are a lot of lurkers here who use this board as a place to think stuff through without necessarily posting and I think it's important that people remember PACE and to be unconditional and attachment focused with our children.

I don't always get that right btw - I don't think anyone does. I'm not advocating perfect parenting!