Just shouted at DD

[Nelly7890]

Regular on adoption boards but also regular NC'r

DD(5 yo) has been home a few months

She is emotionally 18months- 2 years below her age

She is also very wilful. I have no idea if this an 'adoption thing' or an 'age thing'. If I ask her not to do something, she has to do it once more... Often while watching me.

We have a 19 year old cat who is scared of DD and DS, but the DC have, on the whole, been brilliant with her and left her alone.

Tonight DD has been in a tearful mood (another disrupted night last night)

She started stroking the cat who was visibly upset by it so I said, gently, leave the cat alone darling, look she's scared. At this point DD stroked her again.

I wasn't annoyed on behalf of the cat - I'm annoyed that she Never Bloody Listens.

I picked her up and moved her away from the cat at which point she started crying saying 'I didn't want you to do that'

I yelled 'well I didn't want you to touch the cat either but you did'

Then she started crying more and saying she wanted her birth father and birth mother (she's never done this before)

I calmed down, apologised for shouting and explained sometimes Mummy's get cross too. I said I still loved her but didn't like her when she didn't listen (I know, I know... I should have said I didn't like the behaviour)

I said I knew her missing her birth mother and father was difficult but me and DH loved her.

I feel awful. This wasn't just a raised voice, this was yelling.

Could just do with a bit of handholding.

I would put a thread on here about other issues but a recent post from a regular saying (and I'm paraphrasing) why do adoptive parents make all these promises to be really good, and then don't live up to that promise has put me off. In fact, I thought twice about this one too. But flame away if needs be!

I don't know anything really about adoption but thought I would just say everyone has yelled then regretted it and no one can be 100% perfect 100% of the time

In haste as have to go and bath a little (adopted) Madam of similar age, but
Never Bloody Listening is certainly an age thing, probably also an adoption thing and i guess a starting new school thing too? We've all been there and in time you will find your own ways of handling behaviour that don't involve shouting most of the time

I also know nothing about adoption but my interpretation would be adoptive parents promise to be parents and sometimes parents shout. Whether a child has your genes or not is largely irrelevant in this situation, as her parent it's your role to teach her boundaries and what is/is not acceptable and that will cause upset on both sides sometimes but it sounds like you handled the aftermath pretty well so don't be too hard on yourself

Hi, I have no experience of adoption though a good friend has two adopted DC. All mums have yelled and regretted it and apologised. We are all human learning every day how to parent and from our mistakes whether we have adopted our DC or whether we've given birth to them. You are doing your best as am I but sometimes just sometimes they make you wanna yell. You have learnt that yelling is something you don't like doing so next time take a deep breath , be calm and try another way instead, but realise that it may not always work out that way, sometimes just sometimes we make mistakes and we move on and try better next time. Don't be put off asking for advice by what you read, surely we all make a promise whether it's to a new born baby you've just birthed or your new DC you've just adopted, we want the best and happy life for them but sometimes they bring out the rage and you care enough to be worried that you did that and to want to do better. Sounds like you are doing a fine job to me.

First of all, don't beat yourself up. Its happened. You can't undo it, but now need to put things right/limit the chances of it happening again. I say limit, because you're not going to spend the next 13 years speaking in calm gentle voices; we all raise our voices at times. Children are, by their wonderful, unique nature, rather frustrating at times.

It does worry me a little that you are stressed to the point at which you are shouting, especially so soon into placement. Are you feeling stressed or overwhelmed? What do you think might help?

Have you accessed any parenting courses?
It is well worth looking into something.
Most local authorities offer some kind of organised course, some are delivered through local children's centres.

You did exactly the right thing by apologising so are already on the right track.

Early adopter here, lucky enough to be "buddied" with a very wise experienced adopter locally. She said to me once, "OK ideally we would never shout and we would be calm, consistent and empathic all the time. But if once in a blue moon I do shout, it is not the worst disaster in the world for the LO to see that the only thing that happens when I'm cross is that my face goes red and then I say I'm sorry." And it can be an opportunity for a "feelings" chat, talking about how being angry feels in age relevant ways, talking about how it feels in different parts of the body when we're mixed up, or tired etc. It may be that you could make a plan together for how to handle big feelings, so that those feelings become less scary because your child will start to learn there are ways of managing them?

I can remember every time I know I've been snappy or handled something badly, in technicolour detail - I don't have that kind of recall for all of the times it's gone well and I've managed to be intuitive and patient. Your memory of this will quite likely be in your mind helping you handle it the next time your LO does something "one more time".

You are already beating yourself up more than enough. Do try and take a moment to think of ways you can take care of yourself and re-charge your batteries, as you can't run on empty.

Don't be too harsh on yourself, we all occasionally shout. It's human nature to become stressed, and it's not maybe such a bad thing for kids to see human reactions, as long as you can talk calmly afterwards.

All children push buttons but adopted children especially - they need to feel secure and test the boundaries regularly. Ours did the same, they have calmed down now and don't feel the need to, now they are secure in our love and know they won't be 'moving' again, regardless of how naughty they are!
Just do your best, love them and it will get easier.
In the flip side, there is a school of thought that raising children in a completely calm and controlled environment without any excessive emotion can actually be damaging - children are ill prepared to cope with emotional situations as they become older. An interesting viewpoint, I think. Not sure I agree or disagree either way, but food for thought.
If it's any consolation, I'm not the adoptive parent I thought I would be, I get stuff wrong all the time.
We're all learning together!
Hope you feel ok

DD is very like this - I'm also not sure if it's an age thing; an adoption thing; or a bit of both thing. Probably the latter. Sometime I think she can't help herself when we ask her to stop doing something.

Anyway, the parent who says they have never shouted is either lying or laid back beyond what is healthy. So please don't be hard on yourself. In fact - welcome to the bit of parenthood they don't tell you about

I can't give you any advice about adopted children, but I can tell you that my eldest two have both done this at around the 3 year old stage which would fit with your assessment of her emotional intelligence.

Don't beat yourself up about it we all shout sometimes. I use time out if mine do something that I have asked them not to do again, maybe that would work for you. All kids don't listen sometimes and she is still very young. Try not to take it personally if she does it again. Also try to take some time to think of a strategy to keep yourself calm in those situations, I find leaving the room, counting in my head and breathing help when I feel my blood rising.

Small children learn by repeating the same action. So if her language development isn't great (and it quite often isn't in children who've been in care) she's trying to understand why what she's doing is making you shout. So is it the going over to the cat itself? Is it the stroking of the cat? Is she doing the stroking wrong? etc

And the other thing I'd say is that (as you know) children need boundaries. She may not have had much in the way of them before (or they may have been a bit flexible depending on where she was living) so establishing your house ground rules is important. And sometimes that may mean shouting. And that's okay, really. It's okay to get cross.

Finally - none of us get the wording right all of the time - don't beat yourself up :)

I would think it's a bit of both.

I just want to hug you both to be honest, it's not easy for either of you.
x

She is also very wilful. I have no idea if this an 'adoption thing' or an 'age thing'. If I ask her not to do something, she has to do it once more... Often while watching me.

This is exactly what our LO is doing also....similar chronological age but I am still trying to establish emotional age...noone has given us any idea of this.
Also trying to figure out whether its purely an age thing, an adoption thing or a bit of both.

Unfortunately, I too have shouted....and then felt terrible. Unfortunately I cant promise it will never happen again....but I am trying my best to make sure it doesn't. Deep breaths and sometimes removing oneself from the situation (if you can) can help.

Sounds like you did the right thing afterwards though - apologising and reassuring LO that they are still loved and always will be.

all the best

I am a Mum, a good one I think. I promised my DC when I gave birth to them and held them in my arms that I would be perfect - of course I am not! I have had days (when they were little, and occasionally now they are big) when they have tried my patience and I have lost it - yelled and acted awful! and so have they! But we learn from our mistakes and we carry on trying and at the end of the day come hell or high water we love each other unconditionally because we are on the same team!

You sound wonderful, insightful, caring, loving and dedicated! Keep going! Tomorrow is a new day, and your little one is SO LUCKY to have you!

Parents shout! Its ok, its ok you can disagree, make mistakes but still be in a loving family.
I would personally say that this is an age thing, I have to tell DD1 (5.8) to stop doing something at least twice!

Thank you so much for all your replies. I really appreciate it.

I will try to answer some of your questions.

It does worry me a little that you are stressed to the point at which you are shouting, especially so soon into placement. Are you feeling stressed or overwhelmed? What do you think might help?

At times,yes I feel stressed and overwhelmed. But the majority of the time I don't. I am a perfectionist at heart and hate to think that I am doing any of this parenting malarkey wrong. On the occasions that I do get it wrong, I remember how 'high the stakes are' and berate myself. This is not helped by the fact that it is taking me longer to bond with DD than DS.

Writing this list thread and getting words of encouragement helps. So did talking to my husband for 90 mins last night on the phone (he works away and so, during the week, I am effectively a single parent).

Something else that would help is knowing a 'good' answer to the 'I want my birth mummy and daddy' statement. This took me by surprised as previously DD (and DS) have made very little mention of them. They have talked almost daily about their foster carer who they love greatly, but in a time of stress. DD reached out to her birth parents. This took me by surprise.

It may be that you could make a plan together for how to handle big feelings, so that those feelings become less scary because your child will start to learn there are ways of managing them?

I like this idea. Can you give me any examples of how this might work/tell me how to handle big feelings?

Small children learn by repeating the same action. So if her language development isn't great (and it quite often isn't in children who've been in care) she's trying to understand why what she's doing is making you shout. So is it the going over to the cat itself? Is it the stroking of the cat? Is she doing the stroking wrong? etc

Nope, nothing to do with the cat believe it or not. It's that she doesn't listen. I know a lot of kids probably do this, but as a child, I only ever had to be told once. I suppose I can't understand why she is different ( I know, I know).

Anyway

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Your words have helped me more than you can know and I feel much better today. I know that yesterday was a blip and that, although I can't promise never to do it again, actually I'm getting it right a lot of the time for my DD and DS. Well, know as well as any of us can.

Thank you for your words of support

Well, speaking as someone who will probably spend their life trying to work out how to handle big feelings I can tell you what I'm trying at the minute in case it helps!

So, my LO is three. When she is calm (i.e. after a bath when I'm doing a bit of massage) I describe for her what she's doing "That's a lovely big breath in" and I copy the slow breath so she can see it, and I put my hand on her chest so she can feel it. After quite a bit of repetition, I know she can understand how to take a big slow breath.

We have Feelings chats, when she's been upset or I have usually! We talk about what we could do next time, when the feelings are getting "bigger than our heads" (her words). What we both try and do at the moment (agreed together) is three big breaths (she can count to three so she chose the number), sit down (no matter where we are), and have a drink of water. When I can see her anxiety or frustration getting out of control, I step in and say I think it's time for our feelings things, and we do them together. When I can feel myself losing the plot, I try hard to stop and tell her "OK, hang on. I need to stop and do the feelings things, would you like to do them with me?" Sometimes she does, sometimes she doesn't, but I do them anyway and narrate it for her too. Sometimes she wants a cuddle to calm down, and sometimes she doesn't want to be touched, which is why there is nothing about touch in our "feelings things" so she can choose if she wants contact.

Of course I've been so cross that this has sometimes only been a superficial respite, but it has mainly given me enough time to stay calm with LO, and then have a good shout at the tree at the end of the garden/beat the heck out of some bread dough/jump like mad on the trampoline later on!

We use Mr Men characters to teach LO names and facial expressions for feelings (happy, sad, angry, worried, etc). This helps her either draw how she's feeling, or sometimes be able to tell me. Often it has turned out the behaviour that wound me up came from feelings of worry or anger. We verbalise things a lot, so even when she appears to not be listening, I talk to her about how it's quite possible to be happy and sad at the same time, and that it's OK to feel both things. She now draws a happy-sad quite often when she's confused!

Wow upsy my DD (4) can really struggle with her emotions sometimes and I've been looking for new ways to try and help her deal with this, as she'll become unreachable, I love your technique I'm going to give that a go, thank you!

Nelly
Having struggled myself with wilfulness from my DDs I found the book "Raisng our children, raising ourselves" helpful. It's not for everyone but it helped me think about how I was always a 'good girl' and was really wrong footed by my kids being brazenly defiant!

The book says that when your child does something there are a number of windows that can open in your mind (shouting, talking, deep breath etc) and that it can be nurturing for both our children AND ourselves when we choose the response we really want in oir hearts to give.

Of course I still yell sometimes. But the idea that It was really hard to be really nurturing all the time having not been raised like that myself (not an abusive childhood just an ordinary 'seen and not heard' type) was helpful in being kind to myself. I also liked the idea that raising my kids offered the opportunity for me to grow as a person rather than just seeing parenting as an endless draining grind.

Not an adoptive mum and I can imagine that being one requires digging even deeper.

Hi Nelly as others have said, all parents shout. A parent who never shouts might well not exist and if they do maybe they have perfect kids or super human strength.

You said “I would put a thread on here about other issues…” Please do, we all need to learn from each other and share tips and ideas etc. It is only through talking to a friend about parenting 10 years ago that I changed my view of parenting! I had the view of parenting as being somewhat like dog training, where I felt children needed to be subdued and brought in line! Over the years it has changed to something much more about helping children to learn and grow etc. And that initial conversation was before my daughter was even born! So a helpful friend shared her thoughts with me all those years ago and I am a much better parent for it.

So please do share away.

In terms of shouting (and please bear in mind I am someone who does sometimes shout!) shouting to get your point access is really a sign you have lost a bit of control and that is usually unhelpful. I have lost my temper with my daughter a lot over the years. I have that shouting only escalates the situation. So I too am trying to find other ways to deal with my dd pushing my buttons. It is now that I am learning more to control my temper that things have improved. It did not happen automatically, I did a course which I found very helpful. I would recommend it, the Family Links Nurturing Course run by local children’s centre.
www.familylinks.org.uk/The-Nurturing-Programme

And the book, The Parenting Puzzle (which the course is based on). So even if you do not have time or access to the course the book really sets it all out.

www.familylinks.org.uk/shop/schools-shop/the-parenting-puzzle

This course is not specific to adoption but is really good and the principles translate (IMHO) well to any parenting situation.

We also now have a 4 year old ds who joined our family by adoption, who is less of a handful so far! Although, as a newbie, four months in - who knows what the future holds!

I think the desire to do something one more time after being told not to is very common to kids (and even some adults), a bit like having the last word on a situation. Don’t know if it helps to think of it in this way but maybe it does to know it is not so unusual. In a way the situation you describe does not sound like she is not listening to you but that she is choosing not to do what you say and that can be frustrating. I have had both situations with my kids.

It may be that when you can see a situation brewing and telling isn’t working you can distract your child, maybe something like ‘I don’t think the cat is enjoying the attention, can I have a hug from you instead.” And if the behaviour is not what you want you could issue a consequence. ‘Time out’ is not appropriate for children who join a family by adoption but you can do something like ‘Time in’, they sit with you a minute or so instead of playing or they stick to you and do boring stuff for a short while. We say three times of ‘Time in’ during a day and ds or dd lose sweets or treats for that day. DD had ‘Time out’ but a gentler time than the Super Nanny version, but as I say DD is not adopted, and it worked well for her.

Also, you said “This is not helped by the fact that it is taking me longer to bond with DD than DS.”

I am sure you are doing this already but can you do some more things to build the connection with DD. Time with her while your DH looks after DS? As your connection grows you will find it easier to get her on side (IMHO).

I have no idea what to say when they ask for birth parents but I know when ds asked for foster carer in the early days I just explained the situation in simple language and sympathised with his need of her. The longer he has been here the more at home he feels and the less he asks for her (but I know it is not the same and I am sure someone wiser than me can advise you on that aspect of it).

Good luck , parenting is not easy. I am sure you are doing your best and be kind to yourself.

Coolas, a child of 5 who has recently been adopted has certainly experienced serious issues that led to them being adopted and won't by any stretch believe the world is "marshmallows and cream". They will know for a fact that the world can be cruel, neglectful, frightening and traumatic.

Hi there, no experience of adoption, but my ds I a right little button pusher and use to, occasionally still, does things one more time, possibly to see what reaction and possibly to put himself in control of situations.

My best advice in terms of dealing with the behaviour is distraction is better than reaction. I try not to mention the behaviour I don't want, but use three short words to dire t the behaviour I do want. It can be more effective to direct his attention to something other than the cat (ours is terrified of ds likewise) especially if I can ask him to help me with something.

As I have no experience of adoption I won't say anything about what goes emotionally, but be kind to yourself!

I shout sometimes.

Pretty much I have learnt to take a deep breath and be calm.

I certainly wouldn't expect all children to do as their told once asked (DS often doesn't) and at 5, I would lead her away from the cat rather than let her set herself up to fail the test of obeying on command.

The difficulty is comparing them to birth children is that generally birth children are secure in the fact that shouting doesn't mean anything more than you are cross with them. If I shout at DS it confirms his belief that he is "bad" and does stuff wrong and that this can mean that people leave you.

This does make him anxious and difficult to handle - not always straight away but shortly afterwards.

If it helps, DS was at least 7 before he had enough empathy to handle our cats sensitively. Thankfully they were young enough to avoid him!