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Adoption

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Do adopted children have the right to meet their bio-relatives during their childhood?

112 replies

wasthatthatguy · 01/05/2011 13:21

I think the answer to this question is clearly yes.

Social workers got rid of the child's bio-parents, but they did not, and were not entitled to, get rid of all of the child's bio-relatives.

Is it not the duty of the child's adoptive parents to discover the circumstances of the child's removal from his or her bio-family and, unless there are very compelling reasons why the child should not be allowed direct contact with them, arrange contact meetings?

Due to the privacy of the family courts, any social workers will be unable to tell adoptive parents the details of how the bio-parents were alleged to have failed as parents.

Although there have to be reasons why a child was forcibly adopted, it isn't essential that the child was harmed before adoption. A fear that the child may be harmed in the future is sufficient.

I think adoptive parents will find that in at least 50% of cases the alleged and "proven" actual or predicted parenting failures will not appear very alarming and thereby not make contact meetings between the child and his or her bio-parents and or other bio-relatives inappropriate.

OP posts:
lettinggo · 09/05/2011 19:31

Everone here should read that link from corsa100. Very interesting reading.

"my judgment is that his self-imposed role as a critic of the family justice system is gravely damaged, and speaking for myself I will not be persuaded to take seriously any criticism made by him in the future unless it is corroborated by reliable, independent evidence" So said the judge in that case.

And speaking for MYself, I agree with this judge and think the man should be ignored. That's what I intend to do from here on in.

lettinggo · 09/05/2011 19:36

Horse, I missed your post because I was reading corsa's link. That's absolutely dreadful. It's awful to think there are such people in the world who act with no conscience.

hester · 09/05/2011 22:36

Blimey corsa. The judge also said, of Mr Hemmings: "Not once in his argument did he mention the welfare of KP [the child]"

Says it all, really.

corsa100 · 10/05/2011 00:32

I know Hester. How can we take him seriously?

Lettingo. You are right. I shall not be posting on this thread anymore, Or any other threads that these twonks sabotage.

NanaNina · 10/05/2011 12:40

Thank you for the link Corsa - I haven't had a lot of time this morning but for anyone who is interested in the judgement which is very comprehensive (as always) for a high court judge (Lord Justice Wall) I think if you scroll down Nos. 81 -88 are relevant to what the Judge thought of JH. Thanks also to you Fishtank for more revealing information about this horrendous man. I'd say "rat" never mind "love rat" - I could tell you more about the reasons why JH fights this campaign of children being "snatched" from decent parent but am afraid it would be seen by MN to be a personal attack onJH.

Namchanged - of course there will be social workers who are dishonest, totally irresponsible and deceitful, and it is a great pity that you and the child suffered because of this man's behaviour. However I think this is not peculiar to social workers. I have followed the case of Ian Tomlinson who was "unlawfully killed" and it is very clear that the police have lied and lied again and again and had there not been video evidence I am sure they would have continued to lie. This is not the only case where the polie have lied, and we know of nurses who have murdered their patients by overdosing or stealing their drugs for themselves. There will always be "bad apples" unfortunately.

Anyway now we all know some of the truth about JH shall be just ignore him or just post "bullshit" to his posts and move on with our own discussion. He is very thick skinned (and a little unhinged in my view) and if he is crazy enough to take on a High Court Judge, I don't think the revelations on this thread will stop him coming back..............let's just hope not.

NanaNina · 10/05/2011 19:50

I meant of course let's hope that he doesn't come back

princesbold · 15/05/2011 12:27

The answer to this question is simply No ! A child is not an adult and is not capable of knowing what is in its best interests, allowing a child to make this decision could be terrible. This kind of judgement will be made in a family court only.

NanaNina · 15/05/2011 19:10

I think this thread is finished now. It was started by some unhinged bloke who ckearly has an axe to grind and by his queries, he demonstrates that he knowd nothing about child development or attachment or anything else related to adopted children. Then JH stuck his oar in and that is always a problem. However he and thatguy have been well and truly told by all the adoptors on here that contact with parents is so often not in the child's best interests. These men care nothing for the abused and neglected children, only about "decent people" having babies snatched foradoption.

We have even got rid of JH (which is a positive step) He may have been put off by my questions which I knew when I posed them he hadn't a hope in hell of answering them. But I think the main thing is that some of the posters on here found links that showed him up for what he was, and how he has been criticised by a High Court Judge, etc etc so maybe we should see these men's departure from the thread as success and consider it closed?

hester · 15/05/2011 20:45
Smile
lettinggo · 15/05/2011 22:59

Amen Wink

yukoncher · 16/05/2011 11:28

I've only known John Hemming to stand up for the few rare cases (out of hundreds and thousands?) where parents wrongly have their children taken. I haven't seen anyone else have the balls to do that.
To think that to stand up for innocent families will make it so you're accused of being a lover of abusive parents. That's inane logic.
I would hope if anyone's critized it would be in response to a direct to something they've said or done.
That's like someone standing up for the likes of Leonard Peltier, who's facing life in prison in the USA for something he hasn't done. For a humanitarian activists to be dubbed as a 'lover of all prisoners and criminals', and being told they have no care for victims. What utter drivel.

hester · 16/05/2011 14:55

yukoncher, no-one on MN has ever (to my knowledge) criticised JH for championing certain individuals. We don't know those individuals and we don't know those cases.

He will continue to be criticised on here for HIS sweeping statements about things he knows nothing about, for the crass and hurtful assertions he makes that have no basis in evidence or in the lived experience of the adoptive families on these threads.

To extend your own analogy, it's like someone who has championed prisoners who have been subjected to miscarriages of justice, then repeatedly visiting a forum for victims' families and telling them that they are part of a conspiracy to lock up innocent youngsters in order to meet Government targets. And then refusing to listen to their experience. And then refusing to discuss the assertions he has made.

Perhaps you would like to read a few of these threads before you, too, come on here to accuse us of utter drivel. Many of the families here have been through a lot, and I am getting pretty fed up of us not being able to have our own conversations without people who have never walked in our shoes bouncing in here to insult us.

yukoncher · 16/05/2011 17:41

Sorry I didn't realise John Hemming had been on here accusing adoptive parents of being part of the conspiracy to snatch babies from innocent families.
Could you give a source where he says that? Then I'll be able to understand the attitude towards him. Thanks

Maryz · 16/05/2011 18:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

yukoncher · 16/05/2011 18:12

I completely support more being done to prevent forced adoptions, so have liked john hemmings speeches I've seen, and there seems to be, if anything, too many people who trust SS.
But I would never blame adoptive parents of being 'in on it'.
I've missed where he might've suggested that. True I haven't read everything though.

NanaNina · 16/05/2011 20:02

Oh god I think if I hear the term "forced adoption" much more, my blood pressure will be raised. Of course parents who neglect and abuse their children are not going to agree to them, being adopted, and will challenge in court (which is their right) so if that's what people like you mean by forced adoption so be it.

Maybe you would like to look back through the posts and find the links on JH who you "Like" - putting himself up as "Love rat of the year" with his mistress. There is a link that provides evidence of a High Court Judge severely criticising JH in a written judgement. He was ordered out of court by a Birmingham court. He has tried to sue Birmingham City Council in the sum of £30,000 for some perceived injustice connected to his mistress, and said the social workers should pay out of their own pocket.

He has not stated that adoptors are part of the conspiracy but isn't it enough that he thinks social workers, psychologists, psychiatrists, children's guardians (who are independent from the LA) lawyers for the LA and any other professional involved in care proceedings (including the Judge) are all in on this conspiracy to snatch children for forced adoption.

What do you know about it anyway. You've probably read the tabloids and the Daily Mail. If you care to scroll back you will see that I have posed a number of questions to JH (which I knew he hadn't a hope in hell of answering) because he talks complete nonsense. He has an axe to grind because of a personal issue.

As you have been told by Hester this thread was started by another unhinged bloke, telling adoptors that children should have contact with their bio children and from his queries it is clear that he knows absolutely nothing about abused children. These adoptors know what happened to their children by their birthparents and cope daily with the trauma of some of these children whose treatment by birth parents will to a greater or lesser extent will affect them adversely through their lifespan.

SO have a look back at the posts and if you are just going to trot out rubbish about forced adoptions then go away. I have 30 years experience as a soc wrk and manager in adoption and fostering and child protection for a LA (now retired) and have been involved in hundreds of cases of children being removed from their parents for very good reasons and given the stability and permanence they deserve by adoption in a loving home.

hester · 16/05/2011 21:36

yukoncher, I don't want to be unhelpful but I'm afraid I'm not going to trawl back through the adoption threads to highlight evidence of how offensive and discourteous John Hemmings has been to the adoptive parents on MN. By all means take a look yourself, but I have already expended too much wasted effort on the guy.

I think there is an honourable tradition of people standing up for those who have been victims of miscarriages of justice. That doesn't mean that all those who take on this role are honourable, of course. I have no idea if JH's help to those families was honourable or not. He may be a complete hero, for all I know. But that doesn't excuse him and the other men from coming on here and stirring up trouble.

You need to understand that this was our safe place, where adoptive parents could talk about what our lives are like and what our children go through. It feels extremely insulting to have somebody use this space - and our lives - as a peg for bombastic, bullying sloganeering and wild assertions. Hemmings, melvin and wttg do not ask genuine questions of the posters on here; they do not engage in debate. They use our posts to pull all the attention to themselves; they link our posts to hostile anti-adoption websites; they denigrate our experience and knowledge; they ignore our requests to be left alone. It's just a small group of men, but they are really bullying and disrespectful to the women on here.

I would be delighted to have an informed and constructive discussion about ways of improving the child protection and adoption systems. Hemmings always shys away from that discussion. He doesn't want it. It's not his agenda in any way to be constructive. That might not be immediately obvious if you look at just one thread, but believe me if you read through several you will begin to get it.

NanaNina · 17/05/2011 12:04

Congratulations Hester on such a measured post. Afraid I was not able to do likewise. Just so fed up of these posters talking about things that they clearly know nothing about. Have been trying to post and having trouble. Wanted to explain how JH can't actually help any parents for what he perceives as a miscarriage of justice. Will explain why in next post.

NanaNina · 17/05/2011 12:11

Reason JH can't help anyone is because he has no right to be in court with the BPs or effect any decisions made on a child's future. Just because he is an MP he has no more rights than you or I to be in court or indeed anyone else not connected to the case. The only right he has is to be a "McKenzie Friend" (don't know the origin or why the name is so called) but what it means is that the BPs can take someone along with them to court for moral support. He has no right of a "voice" in court and can only speak if the judge asks him a direct question. He can pas notes to the BP and may speak to them in a whisper. Mind they are not always guaranteed a seat next to the BPs.

The people I think JH is really exploiting is the BPs because they will think that because he is an important person i.e. an MP he will be able to overturn any decisions made and they get their children back, and of course he cannot do anything at all about the evidence given in court and the decisions made.

He likes to make people think he has an important role in care proceedings. If you ask him about the outcome of some case he has mentioned he either doesn't respond or if you press him he says "it's in the court of appeal" or "it's in the court of human rights" - I once asked him how many times his intervention had been successful and he replied "we don't keep those figures" - yeah right!

I just hope yuchonker goes away and if he/she comes back I can ignore the post.

yukoncher · 17/05/2011 14:11

John hemmings personal life is none of my business, I'm entirely sure that I could dub anyone as unlikable if I delved deep enough into their privacy.
If he has been in here causing trouble, then forgive me I hadn't seen that.

Hester, I appreciate all the stories of social services wrongly taking children could be disturbing for adoptive parents and make them feel very uncomfortable, and of course some people who've quite possibly been driven to insanity by the loss of their child due to SS could come in here and act in a hostile way toward anyone who doubts them or their cause.

I would really like to discuss what changes could be made, because there are some massive changes that need to be made.
They say removing a child is really a last resort, but I'm not so convinced of that, not because of what the papers have said, but because of what I've seen around me.
In contrast, people on the outside will be only concerned about making sure no children are left to be neglected.
But there are other ways that neglect can be prevented, and families still kept together.
And even if the thread on adopted children seeing bio families wasn't started by a person with good intentions, that's actually a topic I'd like to explore.
My child was adopted. This section of mumsnet is called 'adoptions', so I don't think it should be exclusively for adoptive parents, but anyone who's been involved, like birth parents, what about us??

NanaNina · 17/05/2011 14:28

It is very unusual for a birthmother to come on MN and I certainly welcome you, knowing that you are a BM. I have always always treated BMs with respect even when some of them have done terrible things to their child. I have never ever met an "evil" BM/F - only those who have had such damaging childhoods themselves that it has left them unable to cope with the demands of caring for a child. Many are emotionally immature and with no support, financial problems, housing problems, mental health problems and all sorts of other difficulties. You say you aren't convinced that removal of a child is the last resort because of what you have seen around you. You may not be prepared to say, but do you feel that the removal of yur child was not a last resort.

I woud be interested to know what changes you would like to see in the child protection system.

I took an adoptor to task recently on MN for calling the birth mother of her adopted child "pond life" which I thought was insulting and totally unnecessary. She responded by saying "if you knew what she'd done" etc - and of course I do know. I have seen the sad stories over and over again but I will never codemn birth parents.

I really would be interested in your thoughts/ideas for improvement.

yukoncher · 17/05/2011 15:46

Well it would take a great deal of forgiveness to act respectful towards some people, knowing what they'd done, so I commend you for that.
You might not get many birthmums here because, out of 3 I know who've had their children taken, one is now a heroin addict, one is chronically depressed, and threatening suicide quite regurarily (I grew up near this girl). The other seems to ignore the existance of her first 5 kids and completely dotes on her 6th she got to keep. Birth mums probably suffer massively even talking about it usually. It's been a long time for me, but I've healed alot.

Okay, here's for something important; changes!
It seems their funds to support parents are extremely limited, but their funds to put children into care are a bottomless pit. Maybe this is something the government need to change?
Why can't teen mums be put into fostercare wih their babies, if they're not deemed entirely capable of doing it alone. This would be perfect for many people.
The mother and baby units could be used more often.
I may be bias because of my experience, but I had the manager of the mother and baby unit come into court, I had the court appointed child gaurdian come into court saying that the mother and baby unit would be perfect for me and my child, I then had social services oppose that and just push for adoption, and my lawyer say that it was most likely a funding issue for social services, so my son was just adopted. I don't know if things like that are a regular occurance, maybe I was just a very unlucky person, but I don't believe that should ever happen. I should have been in foster care with my child until the age of 18, or put in a mother and baby unit, those didn't seem like options at the time, I was left alone with my baby at 16 yrs old and it was a 'can she look after the baby completely alone or should the baby be adopted' question for the judge.
There wasn't support when there should have been. I'm a good mother now, and I could have been then I believe (with support).

I think they should be more open about what they're writing when they observe contact. They were so nice to my face, but I later was shown reports where theyd said 'She is unabled to follow simple instructions and advice' on how to carry my son. They wrote I'd been carrying him in a baby fashion when it was age inappropriate as he was a toddler, surely I can hold him how I like as long as it's safe, but when you don't know what theyre writing there's no opportunity to defend yourself. All they wrote seemed to be geared toward one direction, having him adopted, that agenda, because they made me out to be uncooperative, I think they did that to justify them not trying a mother and baby unit for us.

They LIED that I couldn't have him back, when he was actually in voluntary care. I only found out that it was 'voluntry' when they got the intrim care order. They got the intrim care order on the grounds that I'd left him in care.
I wasn't invited to court to defend myself.
Surely that's illegal.

They shouldn't misguide parents and withhold support that could help them keep their children.

hester · 17/05/2011 21:36

That's a very interesting post, yukoncher, and I agree with pretty much everything you say. I think it is unarguable more and earlier support could mean many more families being able to stay together, and I think the moral, economic and social argument for that support is overwhelming.

I'm not a social worker, and I don't have NanaNina's wealth of experience. But I know a fair few adoptive parents, and I read the casenotes (CPR is it, NN?) of about 20 children before finally adopting my daughter. Of all the cases I have heard detail about, I would say that in a small handful of cases the birth mother was, frankly, evil, or damn near it. In a couple of cases, I did find myself questioning whether better support could have meant that adoption wasn't necessary. In most cases, the family was enmeshed in generations of dysfunction, neglect, drugs and often mental health problems. The birth mother wasn't an awful person, but they would have a real struggle to achieve good enough parenting because they had never experienced any themselves. Intervention and support may have made a difference, but it would have taken an awful lot and for a very long time.

I think most of us would agree, though, that society should do more to stop families getting into that position, and that we have got the balance wrong between prevention and taking children into care. The difficult question is about where that balance should be, and how much resource we are prepared to put into it. How much tax are people willing to pay to fund intensive support for broken families? Are people prepared to tolerate early intrusion/supervision in order to catch problems before they become too entrenched? And should we raise the bar for individual cases, so that parents are given longer to get their act together in respect of an individual child?

Personally, I would be prepared to pay more tax to support struggling families. I think we should all be prepared to intervene (personally, or via social services) if we see a child at risk. I think families that have become dysfunctional over generations should get long-term, intensive support - sod the expense, the cost of not doing so is astronomical. But I don't think we should raise the bar on how much risk a child should face before they are taken into care. I think the bar is pretty high right now, frankly. So in the case of my own daughter, I feel very sad that she's not able to be with her birth family. My conscience is clear that adoption was the right thing to do - I would defy anyone to read the details of her case and argue otherwise. But I do feel angry that her mother's problems were evidence for years - decades - before the state intervened in any way, and then in a very punitive way.

And then, of course, the other question is how the system operates and whether it does so fairly. Obviously individual cases are very hard to judge from the outside, but I would be amazed if there weren't miscarriages of justice. It seems to me a system under great strain, overburdened with targets and bureaucracy (and often unhelpful ideology), and struggling to recruit and retain enough high calibre, intelligent, mature and insightful social workers. All of us who are in any way part of this system get damaged by that, but undoubtedly the people who get most damaged are children who are not taken into care when they should be, and birth parents whose children are taken away when they shouldn't be.

So I don't see us on opposite sides in this debate. I think all of us need the system to change, and improve. You say you appreciate that stories of miscarriages of justice must make adoptive parents feel uncomfortable, and of course they do make me feel uncomfortable, but no more so than if I wasn't an adopter, I don't think. To be honest, I don't know what to make of them, since we usually only get one side of the story and never the full picture. But I don't feel I have a vested interest in denying that sometimes children do get taken into care unjustly. I would be absolutely horrified if I discovered that was the case with my daughter, but frankly you just have to look at the bare facts of the case - or at photos of the children who stayed within the family - to be certain that she needed to be taken.

As an adopter I take very seriously my responsibility to help my daughter to understand and come to terms with her history. I will need to discuss her birth family with her in a way that is as truthful as it can be, neither demonising or romanticising them, being honest about how bad the situation was but helping her appreciate why people sometimes end up in situations like that. After all, she may one day be reunited with them, they may become part of her life again. I won't be able to do this if I just hear what I want to hear about them; I have to hear the truth - from them as well as from the social workers - and pass it on as best I can.

I'm sorry about the ridiculously long post, but I hope it has helped you understand that the adopters on this topic are not smug judgy types who have got their kids so they don't want to hear any more about those pesky birth parents, thank you very much. I think we're really a bit more thoughtful than that! We're up for a good discussion with anyone with integrity.

NanaNina · 17/05/2011 21:38

Yuchonker - yes I agree there are insufficient resources to do preventative work with families, which may just be enough support to get them on the right track. Having said that soc wrks have a tendency to keep on supporting, when it is evident that changes are not going to happen and the child is suffering. Time is of the essence in a child's life as abuse/neglect in their early life will follow them through the lifespan - they just don't have the time to wait for their parents to give up drink, drugs or whatever. Funding is a big problem but there is no bottomless pit I can assure you, but I can see why you think that given your circumstances.

You mention teen moms being placed in foster care with their babies. I think you may be going back many years, because now most LAs have such placements, especially with a very young mother.

I agree with you that it was wholly wrong not to give you the opportunity of being placed in a residential setting for you and the baby. Sometimes these units refuse placements if they feel that it is highly unlikely that it will be successful, but you say they were in court saying this was the right course of action. To be honest the judge could have ordered the social workers to take this course of action and it is a great pity that he/she did not do this.

It sounds like you didn't stand a chance as a young girl of 16 with a baby and no-one gave you the support that was necessary and may well have prevented your son being adopted. It is small wonder that you feel as you do, although you sound very measured in giving the details of you and your baby son.

You are also absolutely right that soc wrks should have been straight with you and pointed out any concerns that they had at the time. The business of how you were holding your child sounds ridiculous to be honest.

As for social workers not giving you accurate information about your son's legal status - this is appalling. Did you consent to him going into care, as this is the only way that a child can be removed from a parent without a court order. Maybe you were too young and felt bamboozled by the soc wrkrs.

AS for not being "invited" to court to defend yourself. You needed to get a solicitor to fight your case for you in court. It is the duty of social services to ensure that birth parents know that they must do this. I am wondering how long ago all this happened. I can't imagine a judge conducting a case when the birth mother is not present and legally represented. It just sounds like they all rode roughshod over you - horrendous.

So sorry that you were treated so badly.

hester · 17/05/2011 21:42

Sorry to be back, but I should have said how very sorry I am about all you have been through. It sounds horrendous. We got very close to being matched with a child born in a situation similar to yours. The teenage birth mother and baby were in a foster care placement together. They were continually assessed and it was decided that, although she really loved the baby and was not abusive, she wouldn't ever be able to provide responsible, mature parenting.

This was one of the cases where I did wonder. The bare facts of the case weren't conclusive; it all came down to the quality of that assessment. And I felt desperately sorry for this young girl, who was herself a product of the care system and had been horribly let down by it, throughout her life, and was now losing the only good thing that had ever happened to her.

I don't know that the decision was wrong. Maybe the birth mother was just too damaged, and you can't keep babies waiting for years while mothers become 'good enough'. But the details of the case were tragic, and haunt me still.

Swipe left for the next trending thread