Forced Adoption

[Syd35]

Hi, I'm new to this and wanted to talk about this upsetting situation. Where to start...I will try to make this long story as brief as possible...
My sister's little boy was taken into care a while back due to her drinking and drug use although she always made sure the little one was well looked after. What we thought was a temporary thing has turned into a long drawn out nightmare. The social services are now trying to place him for adoption against her will. My sister dearly wants to be given a chance but the social services are not interested and she hasn't been given any support, just talked down to and belittled. None of the family are in a position to help and I would love to take the child on but my husband is not on board with it so I haven't been able to pursue. I was able to visit him recently and can see he is a very sad and confused child. He loves his mum to bits and they have a lovely bond and it was heart-breaking to hear his foster carer telling him "when you go to your new mummy and daddy". I think it's heartless to tell a young child who is clearly missing his mother that they will be going to a new family. I cannot forget the sadness in his eyes as we said goodbye. Yes my sister has done silly things but she is still young and keeping her away from her child is destroying her. I hate the way SS have handled the whole thing and told lies and had no compassion. They have far too much power and are playing with people's lives. I don't know how they can sleep at night. I understand they have to protect children but how many times have they got it wrong? I am sure with the right support my sister can turn things around but I fear time is running out. Has anyone had a similar experience or any advice?

kew that is so sad. It's gone from one fucked up extreme to the other.

Are...you...serious ?! That's crazy!

Where did that law come from? Here in the US we have the Indian Child Welfare Act, which was put in place during the 70's because Native American children were basically being stolen from their families. So now white people can foster Native DCs but it's very, very, very hard to adopt them. To a point I understand this, of course! BUT. I've seen so many lovely little ones who could have had a wonderful, stable home and instead have had to float around in the system for years because a suitable Native family cannot be found for them. Occasionally the tribe will give their consent and allow them to be adopted, but not usually until they're older and severely damaged by the instability of their lives. Poor little dears. :(

As I always thought the laws in Ireland are in the dark ages ! Very very sad they make laws that treat children as property, how backward is that ?

My dad is Irish and had the most appalling childhood. His life would have been way, way better - and so would mine, and that of his other children - if somebody had intervened

Mryz and kew - I had no idea about that! That system sucks :(

CheerfulYank - i think there have been cases where adoptions have been overturned when the child had NA heritage but the adoptive parents did not follow the law/ICWA properly, and thought they could get away with it - obviously they couldn't. I heard that some tribes are much more restricitve than others? So some will rarely allow any child to be adopted by a non NA family, whereas others are not as concerned

Cripes, maybe that should be our next mumsnet campaign!

I'm only half joking. That's terrible! And yes Lilka I think it does depend on the tribe, but most of them (and you can hardly blame them) are unwilling to let their children be raised in a different culture. I feel for them, but it's the same issue-surely a loving, stable home would be the best thing for any child?

I just wanted to add to those who say long term fostering is no solution.
I have a good friend who was fostered by the same family from 6 weeks to age 18 so really this should have been a stable upbringing but sadly she has no relationship with them now. No grandparents for her DD.
They also had birth children and other short term fostered children and she constantly felt unsure of her status and of their love for her and worried she might be 'given back'. Not helped by having irregular contact with her birth father who sounds a very scary man.
It coloured her whole life the constant uncertainty of not knowing if they really loved her (because if so she reasoned why not adopt her?) although she admits that practically she was treated much the same as the others.
When the normal teenage arguments arose their relationship just couldn't withstand it and she moved out and hardly saw them again.
How much better to be adopted at an early age by someone who really loves you as their own and will always be there for you.

That is exactly the situation we find ourselves in mamadoc. I have 2 birth children, 1 adopted dd, 2 long term foster children.

My two long term children have been with us for two years. I really do love them and would love to adopt them but that is not possible. They will never go home, will be with us to adulthood. It breaks my heart to see them in this place where they don't know where they really belong. I know they love me and dh but they can never really be our children.
They can never jump into bed with me in the morning for a cuddle (as my two often do). I still need to ask permission from the parents to take them on holiday ect.

The little girl often says stuff like "when I am 16 I am going to live with my mum because she wants me back". I don't believe mum will ever be able to forge a healthy adult relationship with her dd so she is spending her life dreaming of a future which simply will not happen. The boy has so many problems to face. He believes one man is his father when it is common knowledge that his father is very probably another man that he has never met. I cannot do anything about finding out the truth. I will just have to support him as best I can when he finds out (which will probably be in a very negative way).

I know that when they grow up our relationship with them will probably fail. Their family have a huge influence on them and they still have quite a lot of contact which nearly always ends in a negative way.

I am trying to argue the amount of contact but as we haven't been to panel to confirm their long term placement yet I am very wary of rocking the boat with SS.

Syd35 I just read through the thread again from where you left off last and wanted to say I am thinking of you.

I know discussion has moved on a lot but if you are looking in on the thread I wanted to say all the best to you. Lots of wise people have made some good comments about security for your nephew for the future and I really hope it will all come together in a good way.

I hope that when he is older he will get the chance to meet up with you and build a relationship with you as a grown-up.

I really hope your sister will get the help she needs and will move on to a good future too.

With all best wishes in a difficult time.

I've logged in after a few weeks and amazed to see the discussion is still active.

Italiangreyhound I really appreciate your message, you have cheered me up many a time through this.

My sister has been told all contact will be stopped soon which makes me feel very sad for her and my nephew. I couldn't imagine being told I would not be seeing my son again, I still think this is all wrong but I know the decision is not mine to make.

I truly wish my nephew finds himself with a loving family that really want him - such as some of the lovely adoptive parents who have taken time to comment on this thread.

Syd - Hugs to you

He will find a loving family, and I also hope you feel better in yourself soon.

My best wishes, to you, your sister and especially your nephew xx

Oh Syd, how very sad for you, your sister and your nephew. I am so sorry it has come to this.

Syd35 Thanks for your kind comments. I can't really say anything about the current situation, it is hard to know exactly what to say.

We have not yet adopted and are still thinking about it, only tonight my DD (6) said about 'when' we adopt (not if!). She is very excited about the prospect and I think she will make a very good big sister to someone one day, if it is the right thing. So you know your nephew may well end up with new brothers or sisters as well as a new family. You will always be an auntie, I really hope you will get the chance when he is older to meet him again.

If you have any spiritual leanings you can remember him in your prayers. If/when you meet again you will have things to tell him and share.

You've expressed so much concern for him and I feel very hopeful that when he is adopted he will get a new chance. You still have your sister with you (I mean in your life) and I hope she will listen to you, and get her life sorted out so that she can go on to enjoy a family life in the future. Many people suffer fertility problems and never get to be parents at all. I really hope she will find the strength to turn her life around and that you will find peace after this process.

All the best,

This is now a legal situation and the only way forward is definately a solicitor firstly. The government now prefer children to be kept within birth families if at all possible. A family memeber can put themselves forward but will have to undergo a full assessment for a special gaurdianship. If nobody is in a position to do this then I am unsure what options are left. Adoption will probably be the result. The child has to be first priority. Unfortunately within the court situation, it is facts not emotions that count.
It is a very sad situation to be in, I found myself in this situation for my grandson. He now lives with us permanently.

@ Syd35 ... Re your comment at 10:31:23 on Tues 18 Jan 11 "... just to let you know the court ruled that my nephew is to be adopted. Just literally found out and am really sad it's come to this. I don't think my sister can appeal or anything so we may just have to accept the fact."

Your sister could appeal. She could also file a claim, preferably on behalf of her son, under the Human Rights Act 1998. But I think either would only be likely to being successful would be if she could obtain a medical report saying that her drink/drug "problem" and or mental health condition is not serious enough to be likely to cause her son significant harm. If you think your sister could obtain such a medical report (recommendation) I can provide further details of the possible legal options. I'm not a lawyer but have been a litigant in person in the past and have "looked-up" quite a lot of the relevant law.

@ Syd35 ... Re "I don't think my sister can appeal"

What probably happened was your sister's solicitor said something like he or she didn't think it would be possible to obtain permission to appeal. I would say the bottom line is that in order to have any realistic chance of obtaining permission to appeal, from judges at the Court of Appeal in London if the placement (for adoption) order was issued by a county court judge, it will be necessary to show that there was something significantly wrong with the legal proceedings so far, ie something which if corrected could have led to a different decision being made, and or some new evidence, eg a medical report, which it could be argued couldn't have been made readily available for use in the proceedings so far.

Thanks for the advice melvinscomment - I have a feeling the law is different in Scotland where my sister lives, do you know much about the Scottish system?

@ Syd35 ... Re the Scottish legal system

I have no experience of the Scottish legal system, but have been a litigant in person in England. Although various details will be different between England and Scotland, I think the same general principles will apply. Below is a web link to section 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998. I clicked the "geographical extent" box on the left of the page and see the Act applies to all parts of the UK :- www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/42/crossheading/public-authorities?view=extent

Here in England a HR claim or a tort claim would be filed on a N1 Claim Form, available via the HMCS web site, which doesn't seem to work very well at night, so I can't check at present whether or not the same Form would be used in Scotland.

@ Syd35 ... Sorry! The HRA 1998 comments above are relevant to someone else from Scotland on a different thread! I checked the Adoption and Children Act 2002, as in the link below, and see it only applies to England and Wales :- www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/38/section/21?view=extent

Then I discovered the Adoption and Children (Scotland) Act 2007 :- www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2007/4/part/2/crossheading/the-making-of-permanence-orders?view=extent

It looks like a permanence order in Scotland is pretty much the same as a placement order in England and Wales. A placement order, and presumably also a permanence order, can be "revoked" ie "set aside" or cancelled, but it's very difficult to do and probably only possible if there has been a serious procedural irregularity at some stage in the proceedings, as in this case in England :- www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2008/835.html

However, in addition to the above Adoption Act comments, there is also the question of whether or not it is worth making a claim under the HRA 1998, along the lines that the evidence against a parent was not sufficiently strong to deprive a child of his or her Article 8 right to respect for his or her private and family life.

Melvinscomment - thank you so much for your interest and taking the time to look up the info.

I spoke to my sister yesterday and she is very upset that she isn't being allowed contact anymore as was my nephew at the last visit when she had to explain that she wasn't allowed to see him anymore. Bearing in mind it has taken 3 years to come to this conclusion and to suddenly stop all contact is very distressing.

My sister tells me she has now stopped using drugs but is on a methodone programme so I'm not sure how that would be viewed in any appeal situation.

I shall have a good read of the links you have posted and think about how best for her to proceed.

@ Syd35 ... Here in England, and I think it will probably be the same in Scotland, the social workers generally stop contact between a parent, normally a single mother, and his or her child, when they get a placement (for adoption) order, which seems to be called a permanence order in Scotland. It was easy for me to look the stuff up, because I already knew where it was. The "MJ (Mother)" case, aka "Re B" I think in a published law report, is the only one I am aware of where a placement order has been set aside on appeal. That was because the Adoption Panel which recommended the child for adoption, ie effectively gave the Local Authority permission to apply for a placement order, hadn't been shown all of the medical reports. Lord Justice Wall, who is now President of the Family Division, said that was a serious "procedural irregularity" and as a result the question of whether or not the child should be recommended for adoption had to be referred back to the Adoption Panel for reconsideration. It seems the only chance of getting a placement order set aside, aka revoked, ie cancelled, on appeal is if a sufficiently serious procedural irregularity can be identified in the prior proceedings. I think it will be a lot easier to do the above before the child has been physically placed in the home of the prospective adopters than it would be after that happens. How long that takes to happen will depend on whether or not the Local Authority have any prospective adopters lined up and waiting, so to speak.

A free-standing HRA 1998 claim, or a tort (wrongful acts) claim, is something entirely different to appealing agaisnt the issuing of a court order, even though the objective may well be the same, ie getting the order set aside and replaced by a different order.

A potential major problem with appealing is that if all of the boxes have been ticked, according to what is specified in the relevant Act, there generally isn't anything an appeal judge can do. He or she may not have made the same decision but can't set the order aside because it was "within the discretion" of the "judge below" to issue the order.

For anyone contemplating trying the HR claim or tort claim route, which I haven't actually tried myself but believe to be entirely possible, I think it would definitely be best to write the claim in terms of what is best for the child, ie to argue that the judge who issued the order complained of was wrong to do so because the evidence, that the parent is likely to harm the child in the future, is not in fact strong enough to deprive the child of his or her Article 8 right to respect for his or her private and family life. I think it may be more or less essential for the parent to obtain a recommendation from a medic to that effect. If not available from already known medics then maybe from another one, maybe or if necessary in a NHS Trust adjacent to the one the parent lives in.

Syd35 how are you doing?

Do come back and talk to us if it would be helpful to you.

Thinking of you.