Covid claims against unis

[UniTO]

This isn't going to affect my institution as we were one of the few doing in person lectures for a fair chunk of the pandemic and I do know some stayed online longer than they should have done but can't help thinking this is going to break some institutions.

The students claiming uni Covid compensation 'for the principle' - BBC News https://share.google/zeZ5tzk6CrZuKQVGp

I know government schemes were helping the economy out but the amount of fraud that went on (PPE scandals etc) ...there could have been a governmental intervention to reduce student fees perhaps?

Some of the comments in that article are hard to take. The girl stuck at her grandparents house with no WiFi .. that's not the university's fault. Maybe she should have withdrawn and returned later. I am a lecturer who has ended up with long term health issues from the pandemic. It was extremely difficult..I caught covid at least once from students who didn't test, who were (understandably) mixing and doing the things young people do.

I sympathise with students but it was shit for everyone. I don't know that unis should bear the cost of refunds here. What do you think?

I understand why they feel aggrieved. They didn’t get the education they paid for. Of course it could be argued that they are incredibly privileged because they didn’t get stuck in halls thousands of miles from home like some of my husbands Chinese students.

It was tough all round but we did everything we could to be there for students right through COVID (I work in PS - student facing role) Firstly grappling with new online systems and pulling together an entire service online really quickly then we all came back to campus as soon as we were able to offer f2f support. I work with several staff members who were really vulnerable and it was utterly terrifying for them.

This feels like another reason to bash universities and tbh I feel I've had enough....

I think everyone did their best in difficult circumstances. Don’t think they should be compensated but it will probably be the next “no win no fee.”

I despair. Yes a horrendous thing happened and lots of us were cheated out of all sorts of experiences. Shall we all therefore sue someone about it? Mothers cheated of maternity experiences she whom? Hospitals? Pre schoolers cheated out of key developmental exposures sue childminders ? Students sue schools? For fucks sake. We worked so hard to provide all we could in desperate times.

They purchased an experience which the unis failed to deliver, so makes sense theres compensation

How the fuck could the universities have delivered the experience of attending bars cafes in person events when these were prohibited by the government and there was an epidemic taking fucking lives

Bonkers, lecturers were only off because it was illegal to gather in person? Not sure how claims for compensation stand. And it took me so much longer to do everything online. It was hardly the ‘easy’ option crashing into a maze of 7, yes 7 different online systems to learn.

And on top of it all I had an 18-month old and a 4 yo at home so worked every night into the early hours. So yeah, where’s my time off in lieu, compensation etc etc.

I think if universities don't deliver what they promise under normal circumstances then students should have recourse. I think for those students who were mid course during the pandemic, it seems harsh they paid full fees but I don't think it's reasonable for universities to compensate them when they didn't have a choice. They had a duty of care to staff as well as following government rules. We all busted a gut. It was the trigger for me having a lifelong chronic illness.

Maybe this is more something the government should have dealt with from student finance pov rather than unis now being sued when they're already on their knees.

What a mess it is now education is marketised.

It’s been marketed for a long time now though hasn’t it. Fees are so high and student debt is huge. I can see why this is now happening of students didn’t get the experience or education they paid for when we’re talking many thousands which they will be saddled with for almost their whole working life. I’m not sure what should have happened instead, but universities should have made sure that everything was back in person as soon as rules relaxed, some (I’m sure not all) definitely didn’t, and maybe there could have been more options to pause degrees and start back later.

There was a global pandemic. The universities were governed by national regulations. Lots of us lost loads of experiences. Should I sue my extended family because there were too many of us who were deeply grieving and only 10 were allowed at the funeral so I couldn’t go?

Most universities are already on their knees, this could really push some under. I really hope no claimant receives payment but if any do I hope they have to prove that they attended every face to face seminar/lecture etc provided. DH taught everything four times in a row so that students could attend in small groups for safety in line with national guidelines and yet hardly any students turned up. Some students also benefited a lot when exams were online because they got together in groups to cheat and do what were meant to be individual exams together (different uni from DH’s).

I have a DC in the affected cohort but I would be extremely disappointed that I had raised a selfish ignorant young person if I heard they had claimed. Yes life is tough for young people and yes it was really hard what COVID did to their youth, but it wasn’t the universities fault.

My dd is in the affected cohort - she had no inperson teaching for 18 months! Some
Universities ( not all) absolutely did not deliver a service that was paid for. If it had just been the times when government guidelines prevented teaching in person then fair enough but it went on way longer than it should have.
I sympathetise with staff but equally with the students to be honest.

As a healthcare worker who had no choice but to carry on as normal I do struggle with the timelines of some industries who really carried on the covid policies
far far too long.

I’m in health too and went in and put myself at risk. But the uni students who were concerned re distance teaching and assessment going on unnecessarily long should have complained via their student’ union at the time when something could have been done about it.

More generally there is widespread misunderstanding about what students are paying for and face to face teaching is only one of the many costs a university has relating to students , even discounting the times when teaching benefits from research. Think about the student journey from applicant to graduate and think about all the things that are provided - info on their courses, asssessing applications, running open days, induction, providing IT, buildings, all the other facilities, library services (mainly digital now and still accessible during lockdown).

If they get any compensation from what are highly likely to be Russell Group unis who delayed f2F return it should be max 25% of the face to face teaching cost per student which they might be surprised to find is a small part of what their fees go on , given that most academics I know are propping up an underfunded system by working double their hours or more.

I agree. My university is on that list. We only moved online when we were forced to by the government lockdown and were back in the classroom the minute those restrictions were lifted, only teaching students online if their own circumstances required it (so effectively double teaching so that students with health issues or still facing travel restrictions could continue with their studies). Significantly more resource was needed from the university and individual staff members during this period.

I think these sorts of claims (as featured in the BBC article) need kicking out.

Of course students didn't have access to studio space, equipment and materials,. It was against the law. As I had to explain to disgruntled students who were expecting to come back into doing practical hands-on stuff. It was against the law.

The teaching I did during Covid was some of the most difficult teaching in my (long) career. And I was on occasion spoken to with great disrespect by students. They were projecting their fear about their degrees, and anger at the situation, but that is no reason or excuse to swear at lecturers online or question our capacity.

It was tough for everyone - my observation of university students is that they had quite a good time when they all came back onto campus. I live near a student-y housing area, and even during all the restrictions f sticking to your own "household" I heard the house parties up & down the street, and I saw the gatherings. These were students who had little consideration for others, or contacting or spreading the virus.

We didn't stop teaching. We kept going, often at cost to our own health & families.

But your ignorance of universities & how they work always shows in your posts.

"I had a friend of mine that spent lockdown with her grandparents, and they had limited WiFi, and the only material she could access was a biro pen and lined paper," Riki said.

This student is so hard of thinking. How was it the university's fault her grandparents were not properly equipped?

At my place, staff were asked to notify our IT people if we suspected this kind of problem. Our IT people did everything they could to assist students in this situation - god knows how many dongles were sent out!

My ds took was at Durham from 2020 to 2023. On hid course everything was onlinr for 2.5 years. Unacceptable!

My Chinese students, who should have been studying in London, had to stay in China to undertake their “pre sessional” course, online, for university. The whole thing is meant to integrate them into British culture and improve their language confidence before they start. Instead they just got charged for a course they absolutely didn’t get. Awful.

I disagree with a lot of the comments on here. Yes it was illegal, on and off. But unless those universities reopened to in-person teaching as soon as restrictions allowed, then absolutely those students should be compensated. Regardless of how hard the lecturers may have been working. Regardless of what the law was or was not during that time.

Some of those commenting may be too privileged to realise that students these days PAY for their education. Perhaps some of you didn't have to. And 10s of thousands of pounds, with repayments stretching right in to their 60s (on the most modern repayment plans). They have every right to challenge and expect sizeable compensation, particularly where institutions didn't trip over themselves to return to the norm at the earliest opportunity.

My gym carried on taking our direct debits for months in to Covid, and eventually compensated us- because as customers, we did not receive a service we'd paid for. They didn't say 'well it was illegal to have the gym open, so we'll just keep your money despite the fact you didn't get what you paid for'!

It should be on a course by course basis. Some courses stayed online longer than others. And far longer than secondary schools for example. I feel for the students but can’t see where the money will come from. If student loans could reduce or cancel interest rates for those years that might help

I think the students on the course I teach at my might have grounds for a complaint.

In the first September of covid the rolling lockdowns looked like teaching on campus would be very unlikely. Myself and the team of our course worked out a plan to teach the course fully remote... this did require some work because we are Film Practice course and the on campus filmmaking thing is important. But it we clear if we let students enrol in sept moved back down to the city(failing seaside university) they would just be stuck isolated in bleak student accommodation away from family.

So we worked out a fully remote plan so we could give the students to option of staying at home or moving back - e.g make it optional. Management wouldn't listen under no circumstance were we to offer a fully online semester.... they didn't listen.

So September happened the students moved to their accommodation and were promptly locked down in halls. No on campus teaching happened that semester - students had to deal with the stress of being remote and in halls... We got them to move in false pretences. Their mental health did suffer must have been horrible and a lot of the suffering was preventable. Was just the uni management ignoring the obvious, hoping to maximise revenue etc.... I think thats grounds to sue. Sure Covid wasn't uni's fault but the way many debt with it was horrific.

The callous treatment of staff at the time was pretty bad. We would have a miserable time teaching into the void, cameras off, zero interaction... then management would still gather "student feedback metrics" and punish us for "The lecturer has a boring voice"

As a university lecturer with a dc at uni during that period I guess I see both sides.

for my students they and exactly the same teaching although online not f2f. Every session was delivered, we did break out rooms for activities,etc. I’m not sure how they could argue that they didn’t get the teaching they signed up for. However I suppose they didn’t get the wider university experience and I guess part of their tuition fees does pay for that?? I’m thinking more of the social side, student union stuff?

dd was an architecture student, they ran stuff online but a massive part of her course should be making models, being in the studios, etc. she really struggled and ended up having a mental breakdown and then interrupting. She did go back and finish her course but it had a financial impact on her. Should she be compensated for the fact she has had an extra year of loans?

Courses with practical elements (making models, music, art, drama, chemistry etc) would be clear candidates for discounts then which sounds widespread and expensive

What no one seems to be saying is that because this was unprecedented, unis had to scramble to work out how to deliver teaching. We had always been in person, delivering practical sessions, and suddenly everyone had to work out how to deliver online, some while juggling their own children being at home. The first few weeks were a mess, everywhere. That's not to say that the universities weren't trying to provide the service.

Since the introduction of higher fees though, students are being way more entitled. I've been shocked at the way students have responded to being chased for an overdue short training module they were asked months ago to complete. There's very much a sense of "you work for us" coming from them that I never felt back in the early days of fees.

What I still don't understand is why universities were not allowed to 'furlough' students, pausing courses for the duration of the restrictions. It would have made a lot more sense and been less cruel than needing to continue for the sake of uni's fragile finances but then in no way being able to actually provide virtual versions. I also feel for the staff who were so overstretched often caring for their own kids at the same time as trying to adapt their courses to be completely different and delivered online. As a society we had to pretend to the students that they are equivalent when they are clearly not. Their degrees will always be worth less and employers can see that now.

If your degree required hours of hands on practice and collaboration with your peers you clearly couldn't get the experience you needed if stuck at home on the end of a video call, or worse stuck in expensive student accomodation close to libraries and resources but not allowed to actually use them. I have no problem at all with students recognising this and asking for better. Any compensation paid may well push struggling unis over the brink though - awful - could all have been avoided if the students were just furloughed