Revise and Resubmit with Another Viva

[shernjerner]

Last year, I had a difficult viva that resulted in a "revise and resubmit" outcome, which, according to my university rules, comes with sitting another viva. The experience was overwhelming: right at the start, the examiners told me that the viva would be very challenging, and that the outcome might be reserved if they couldn’t reach an agreement. This immediately knocked my confidence. The grilling lasted nearly two hours, followed by another hour-long private discussion between the examiners, after which I was called back in and the horrible outcome was announced.
While both of my supervisors had been happy with my thesis and expected only minor corrections at worst, the examiners explained that the thesis needed significant additions, not changes to the existing work, but new material, amounting to many thousands of extra words. They felt this required extensive new reading and work, and so gave me an R&R. When I asked them if another viva was necessary, they clarified that it was mandatory under university rules, and hence, they will have to go for it. Also, I had a publication in a reputed journal before I submitted the thesis earlier, and I have another upcoming publication from another chapter of that thesis, in a top-ranked journal of my field.
I revised the thesis over the past year and resubmitted it recently. I am to have my reviva in less than two weeks from now, and I am very, very nervous considering what happened to me in the same setting last year. I am so scared that I am not even able to read the thesis in preparation for the viva. I am most scared about the outcome of getting an MPhil or failing this time, knowing that this is my absolute final opportunity for securing a doctorate. I have invested more than five years and a lot of resources into this degree, and I can't afford not to get it after coming this far. I am barely eating or sleeping, as the memories of my previous viva keep replaying in my mind, leaving me too anxious to function properly or prepare for the upcoming one.
I could really do with some reassurance from anyone who has been in, or heard of, a similar situation. From what I know, I am the first to have this outcome from my supervisor's cohort of PhD candidates so far (they have supervised a considerable number of PhDs); knowing this makes me feel even worse. On top of it all, seeing those who started with me graduate before me makes the blow even harder. I feel very alone in this, and I’m worried about what I’ll tell people if I don’t succeed. Everyone around me is wishing me luck for this viva; most of them don’t even know that this is actually my second one. I just can’t think of telling them if I fail this time. Not finishing a PhD feels like such an unusual situation, since everyone I know who started one has gone on to graduate as a doctor.

It's a tough outcome so appreciate how you're feeling

Two hours is quite standard for a viva. Sometimes longer in some fields.

Can you ask for a mini mock viva to get you in the mindset to be examined again. It might help you focus.

Look carefully back at the feedback and be prepared to discuss how you've addressed it. And just breathe. You know your stuff, you've lived five years of it.

One thing you need to remember is that once you pass, you've passed, you'll have your PhD, no one will know you had to do additional work.

I’m sorry this happened. Talk to your supervisor. It is in their interest to help you pass. They should be able to talk things over and offer a mock viva.

for the viva itself, will there be an independent chair present? It is often useful to have someone who knows the rules if your examiners are inexperienced.

in the previous viva, did you feel the questions were fair or were they odd or off topic or based on misunderstandings?

My supervisor has been least supportive during the journey and the only feedback she ever offered me was correcting some grammatical errors here and there. When I approached her with a very minor point I couldn’t understand in the examiners’ report, I was told not to pester her and to respect her busy schedule by not emailing her before it’s time for the next meeting. Given this, her agreeing to conduct a mock viva is far from possible.

The examiners only asked a handful of questions directly about my thesis. Most of the discussion focused on things outside its scope, and I was asked to add unrelated approaches and conduct experiments that were not a part of my original research and I had deliberately left those out because they’re unnecessary to my findings. While both examiners work in the same broader field, neither is a specialist in my specific focus area. It was also the internal examiner’s first time examining a PhD thesis, and they followed the external examiner’s line of questioning quite closely. I had been told that internal examiners often help balance the process or step in if they see a candidate under pressure, but that wasn’t how it played out for me. Instead, I felt quite alone during the process, which was difficult.

And yeah, we do have a Chair from the department to oversee the proceedings but unfortunately, they’re not expected to read the thesis, so they wouldn’t know what is being asked and if it’s outside the scope and things like that. :(

I got my R&R about 20 years ago, after a 2h viva (which is insultingly short in my field) - it took me a long time to get over it. With time, i came to understand that this was the result of a combination of factors, including a very poor choice of examiners (with no expertise in my model system), bad timing (viva more than 5months after submission, i was working and the literature had moved on massively), fairly absent supervisors, and naivety on my part that all academics see the process of research and reporting on research from the same stand point.

I genuinely cannot remember what was required of me in the end - i eventually did it, pushed by DH to not throw the towel in. I now model my supervision style to not be like my absentee supervisors, and my examining style not to be like the two blokes who examined me and decided to write off what i did based on their partial understanding of my subfield.

You will get there.
Ask for a convenor.
Ask for a mock viva.
Stop seeing it as a grilling. It s an opportunity for you to defend your work.

Also - tackle derelict supervision by having a chat with your head of grad school or similar person, and seeking input on how to make the best of the situation. Not burning bridges, but getting as much support lined up as possible.

Universities do not like supervisors who do not support their students.

Thanks for the perspective. You’re right, nobody would know this was my second attempt if I pass and I really hope that I do.

My supervisor would not agree to conduct a mock viva; she made it clear when I requested her for one the first time around. That said, I will try and see if a friend or my husband would be able to have a mock viva with me. However, since they’re not from my field, they would only be reading the thesis from a lay perspective. But that’s still something and would get me used to talking about my work again, after a year-long gap. Thanks!

Thank you for sharing your experience. Knowing that you went on to become a successful supervisor and examiner gives me hope that, like you, I’ll also get through this and eventually come out of the defence as a doctor.

I’ll definitely take your advice and seek as much support as I can from my department before going into the viva again. I’m also considering asking if the session can be recorded, so that I have a backup in case anything feels unfair this time.

Happened to one of my students. It was disastrous, indeed was initially meant to be a resubmit capped at MPhil. We fought that very hard and overturned it. She finally got the PhD. But what I learnt was that some examiners have in it for students - my predecessor screwed up. Circumstances meant that we had to reappoint a fully new examiner team, and go, exceptionally, through 2 more vivas, which was within the remit of our rules, owing to very particular circs. It passed finally with the note that it was one of the best theses the examiner team had ever read and they were baffled by the backstory. Not helpful advice, here, I know. Just back from doing an ex ex in Scandinavia. I think it has its advantages.

Well, it’s really not acceptable for your supervisor to refuse to do a mock viva with you. It’s a perfectly standard thing for PhD supervisors to do. So you could take that to your head of dept. Your supervisor sounds like she has washed her hands of you and that really isn’t ok. Did you not have two supervisors? Your head of dept should either prevail upon the supervisors to do it, or find someone else in the dept to do.
I know there’s only a few weeks to go, but you have paid your fees to be supervised until completion and that time is not yet up.
Best of luck to you.

So sorry you've had such a shitty experience, but you absolutely can do this.

I found Tara Brabazon's viva vlogs the most helpful thing, she has a fab one on prep and one that is set up as a mock viva:

Are you able to do a presentation as part of your viva? I found this super helpful to cover some of the standard viva questions and it got me in the right mindset for feeling authoritative about my work.

That’s a good suggestion. I‘ll look into my options and ask the department head if it would be possible to arrange a mock when I’m just about 10 days away from the viva. I had two supervisors, but the second one retired last year right after I had my first viva. My primary supervisor told me she’ll talk to the department and get a new secondary supervisor to guide me with revisions. But she didn’t arrange that despite me reminding her twice. I didn’t want to burn bridges and hence didn’t approach the department for that. I instead did all the revisions on my own, after she told me not to see her as my supervisor anymore but just as an advisor. To this, she added that she could read my revision work IF I wanted her to. This was contrary to what my examiners had told me; they said I should get full supervision of 2 supervisors and work closely with them to do the revisions over the course of a year. Neither of these things happened.

I was already devastated at the outcome and didn’t’ want my supervisor to get the examiners to fail me out of spite (academics have a strong community and she knows my external examiner well).

I’m thinking of bringing up these issues in the second viva, if the examiners are overly critical again. Despite their clear instructions, I didn’t receive the required support from either my supervisor or the department, whose job it was to assign me a secondary supervisor when my previous one was gone.

That’s a good suggestion. I‘ll look into my options and ask the department head if it would be possible to arrange a mock when I’m just about 10 days away from the viva. I had two supervisors, but the second one retired last year right after I had my first viva. My primary supervisor told me she’ll talk to the department and get a new secondary supervisor to guide me with revisions. But she didn’t arrange that despite me reminding her twice. I didn’t want to burn bridges and hence didn’t approach the department for that. I instead did all the revisions on my own, after she told me not to see her as my supervisor anymore but just as an advisor. To this, she added that she could read my revision work IF I wanted her to. This was contrary to what my examiners had told me; they said I should get full supervision of 2 supervisors and work closely with them to do the revisions over the course of a year. Neither of these things happened.

I was already devastated at the outcome and didn’t’ want my supervisor to get the examiners to fail me out of spite (academics have a strong community and she knows my external examiner well).

I’m thinking of bringing up these issues in the second viva, if the examiners are overly critical again. Despite their clear instructions, I didn’t receive the required support from either my supervisor or the department, whose job it was to assign me a secondary supervisor when my previous one was gone.

Thank you for the motivation and for this really useful resource. We do not have presentation-based vivas at my university, but I'll most likely be asked to summarise my thesis or the changes made, in 4-5 minutes, making that a mini verbal presentation. I'll definitely look into the video you've shared for tips.

I'm glad to hear you supported your student in what must have been the hardest moment in their academic journey. I wish I had a supervisor as supportive. Still, this example reminds me that I'm not without options and I can appeal the decision if something goes wrong this time, though I really hope it doesn't come to that.

@shernjernerare you saying that no supervisor, or any other academic in your department, has read through your revisions? If so, that is shocking. If that is the case, then I would be inclined to request a postponement of the viva. In my opinion, you shouldn’t go into your second viva without someone, ideally your supervisor, having read the revisions, especially as you say they were extensive. I don’t think the viva itself is the place to complain to examiners about your department’s failure to supervise you properly. That would be better done in a formal complaint afterwards (or before if you request a postponement).

Sorry, I didn't mean that the supervisor didn't read my revised thesis, but that she left it to me to decide if I wanted her to read it, which I did. From what I know, that's not an option but a part of the supervisor's duty to read a revised thesis before it can be resubmitted. She read it upon my request and told me I had done well, but didn't offer any other feedback/suggestions from her side. What's disturbing is the fact that she portrayed her duty of reading my thesis as doing me a favour. The time she took to read it (two days, along with a heavy load of teaching duties) makes me doubt she even read the entire thing.

I think you should raise the lack of support from your supervisor and department NOW before the viva. If you do nothing now and then the viva goes badly, it will look like sour grapes. And even if the viva goes great, the university should still know that you haven’t had the right support.

I am really sorry to hear about your experience.

Have you considered using some sort of LLM to help prepare? A fellow student used ChatGPT ahead of her viva and I used CoPilot to prepare for my last annual review. A friend uploaded her entire thesis to ChatGPT (she said she wasn't concerned about confidentiality) and got it to ask her questions. She refined her prompt with things like "this is really important for my career". I uploaded my annual report - the version of CoPilot provided by our institution apparently doesn't take uploads into training data.

We both passed. My experience (also with trying out ideas for academic writing on CoPilot) is that it's can be a bit superficial and a bit too keen to agree with you, or it sounds more categorical than is really appropriate - like talking to a colleague who sounds good but is a bit of a blagger. It was useful for asking obvious and marginally less obvious questions. When I actually had the upgrade meeting, the difference between that and someone who actually knew what they were talking about and could prompt my thoughts in new directions was quite stark. However it might be useful to get you used to talking about your work again after a gap, as you say above.

What you suggest seems fair but it's going to be a really tough call to make. However, I will keep your suggestion in mind and carefully consider it along with all possible repercussions. Thank you for this.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I never considered this before, but it sounds like a great idea. I'm definitely going to give it a try, since I believe an LLM would be more effective at generating thought-provoking questions, as compared to someone who may not have much knowledge in my field.

You should definitely get a mock from someone in this situation. I’m amazed your supervisor is being so unsupportive, as it doesn’t generally reflect well on the supervisors or department for a student to fail - so they should be doing everything they can to support you. That’s in their own interests, as well as yours!

For my last student who asked for a mock, I grilled her on some chapters and I arranged for some colleagues to have mini mock vivas with her where they asked her about the others. It seemed a bit much to ask (non-examiner) colleagues to read the whole thesis, but this worked well, as they only needed to read 1 chapter each plus ask a few generic “big picture” questions, to give her practice with those. Is there anyone you could ask to do this, if your supervisor refuses to sort this out for you?

I’m planning to ask my supervisor again if she could conduct the mock viva. If she refuses, as she did before, I’ll have very few options left. I might have to ask a family member or a former professor from my undergraduate days, though I doubt they’d be able to go through my thesis properly at such short notice.

What you did for your supervisee—going above and beyond to support them—is admirable. I only wish my supervisor showed even half that level of care, especially since my career feels like it’s on the line if I don’t succeed this time.

Your examiners will not be able to mitigate their decision based on an allegation of poor supervision/ support. They can only base the decision on the thesis and your defence.

If you were to get an outcome of MPhil you would then be able to appeal the outcome on the basis of poor supervision. The appeal would only potentially get you another go at the viva or some sort of financial compensation. It wouldn't give you a pass.

If you were to pursue this make sure you have evidence to support this however. Look at your institutions policies and expectations of supervision and supervisors e.g. if policy says you should have2 supervisors thats a breach and may be grounds for appeal.

Thank you for this. I’ve been exploring possible options for an appeal in case things don’t go as planned this time. Since the university doesn’t seem to have a strong appeals system in place, I may need to take the matter to an external court. The issue is that the appeals need to be accompanied by strong support from the supervisor to contest the examination outcome and ask for another viva with a different exam committee. I’m uncertain how the process works when the supervisor herself is part of the issue.

As you’ve suggested, I’ll review the university’s handbook for supervisors to see what roles and responsibilities are outlined there.

Universities are required to have an appeals process in place. You are not expected to involve your supervisor if they are the subject of the complaint, and you should not be discouraged from pursuing an appeal on that basis.

Academic appeals are typically considered on two main grounds:

1. Material irregularity – where the university’s procedures were not followed correctly.
2. Mitigating circumstances – where serious issues affected your performance and you could not reasonably disclose them earlier.

The Office of the Independent Adjudicator (OIA) acts as the external reviewer of appeals, but they will only consider a case once you have fully exhausted your university’s internal procedures.

You can find their guidance here: https://www.oiahe.org.uk/resources-and-publications/good-practice-framework/requests-for-additional-consideration/appeals/

Be aware that there is usually a strict deadline for submitting an appeal — at my institution, it’s 20 working days from the date the outcome is formally communicated. So it’s important to prepare in advance, even if you’re still waiting on a decision.

For now, your focus should be on your upcoming viva — but it’s good to know that this route is available should you need it.

Wishing you the very best of luck!