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PhD woes......just want a rant to fellow academics who might understand

70 replies

TearsforBeers · 07/05/2024 15:01

Not sure what I'm expecting anyone to say but just feel like i need a safe space to rant......apologies, it's long.

I've been an academic for 7 years but worked at my uni for 18. I was headhunted from another department to teach on a specific course. I was immediately put on a part time PhD and the pressure to complete on time has been pretty intense.

In that 7 years I've progressed quite rapidly. I started out as a lecturer but i'm now a director of education in my faculty. I suspect that this has got some old school academic's backs up but it's never really bothered me as I'm good at my job and have track record which supports my progression. I've earned it.

My PhD experience hasn't been very positive. I've had 7 different supervisors and my last two ( who saw me through submission) have been pretty disinterested at times. However, I submitted on time and was pretty happy with what I'd done.
I had to wait 7 months for a viva which is an issue in itself but there wasn't anything I could do.
I had a mock viva two weeks before with my supervisors and it went really well. Both said they were really confident about the outcome and although we identified some weaknesses in the study we discussed strategies to address these in the actual viva.

Viva day arrived - it didn't start well. We had to move rooms 4 times and my supervisor didn't bother to turn up.
However, I thought i performed well. The external examiners were lovely and although they asked challenging questions there wasn't any suggestions that they didn't like what I'd done, how I'd done it or what I'd found.

My internal examiner was someone from my faculty and he was really, really harsh but i felt i handled myself well.

My verbal feedback was a bit of a disaster. They were complimentary and said I'd found something really interesting but that they wanted me to make a few changes - no new content just a bit of restructuring and strengthening. Nothing that would take too long. However, I didn't realise until I left that they hadn't formally informed me of my outcome ( minor or major amends) but i thought I'd see what my report said as it didn't seem too bad. I was pretty pleased with myself if I'm honest.

Later that day my internal examiner visited my office and proceeded to give me loads of additional feedback on my thesis - basically he didn't like it. Not one of the points he raised were discussed in the actually viva itself. I asked him what my outcome was and he said a full re-write!!!
I've not received my official report yet but I'm absolutely devastated. I genuinely feel blindsided as that outcome does not tally with my experience. However, as my supervisor didn't bother to turn up i have nobody to tell me whether i completely misjudged the situation. I think i've probably got grounds for complaint but it would mean complain abut my own department at at time when there is a lot of shit going on with redundancies. .

Not sure if its relevant but my internal examiner has been an academic for 20 years but this was his first time examining a PhD and he's only doing it because he wants to get promoted to professor and you need yo have a certain number of examinations competed to be able to do that. I'm more senior than him but 20 years younger. It makes for an odd dynamic.

Well done if you got to the end!

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UneTasse · 07/05/2024 15:03

That’s awful! I don’t suppose the viva was recorded, by any chance?

UneTasse · 07/05/2024 15:06

It feels like if this feedback was delivered privately without you having a chance to defend, then it literally cannot be recorded in the viva report. Does anybody have your back?

PolterGoose · 07/05/2024 15:13

That sounds horrendous, and he was incredibly unprofessional giving you feedback outwith the formal processes.

Was there an independent chair?

(mine was definitely worse than I expected with even my very experienced supervisor who sat in commenting on how tough it was, but there were no surprises)

TearsforBeers · 07/05/2024 16:08

UneTasse · 07/05/2024 15:03

That’s awful! I don’t suppose the viva was recorded, by any chance?

Unfortunately not. I'm really regretting not going to find someone else to sit in with me when my supervisor didn't show but we were already running late as we'd moved rooms 4 times.
They also didn't ask if I wanted someone which I thin they probably should have.

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bibliomania · 07/05/2024 16:09

I'd wait for the full report before making any decisions. It's possible that the internal examiner was only giving his side of things (possibly magnifying it for whatever malign reason) and the actual outcome isn't quite as he described it. Also, when you can consider it calmly, it might be that they suggest stuff that does genuinely make it better and you can get more publications out of it.

I deal with appeals and it sounds like you may have grounds for appeal, but it's worth thinking about whether the outcome is worth it. At best, the original decision would be set aside and you'd go through a new viva with new examiners - would you be better off with that rather than going with the rewrite?

Oh, and sympathies! It sounds extremely painful.

TearsforBeers · 07/05/2024 16:14

UneTasse · 07/05/2024 15:06

It feels like if this feedback was delivered privately without you having a chance to defend, then it literally cannot be recorded in the viva report. Does anybody have your back?

That's my feeling on this. I had a very strongly worded email about not contacting examiners during the examination period so I assume the same advice is given to them?
I have no idea why he felt that was appropriate. He acted all sheepish as though I might be upset with him but i genuinely thought it had gone well so was very confused as to why he thought that........ until he told me my outcome was a 12 month re-write!

My line manager will be very supportive but he's on leave until next week so other than a quick text I've not given him the details. He's the Dean so if he thinks my internal hasn't been very collegiate then he won't be happy.

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TearsforBeers · 07/05/2024 16:20

PolterGoose · 07/05/2024 15:13

That sounds horrendous, and he was incredibly unprofessional giving you feedback outwith the formal processes.

Was there an independent chair?

(mine was definitely worse than I expected with even my very experienced supervisor who sat in commenting on how tough it was, but there were no surprises)

There was an independent chair - this was only becuase it was my internal examiners first one. Tbh that surprised me as he's been an academic for ages so i don't know how he's got away with not doing one before - we're very much everyone is expected to put their weight kind of faculty.

it didn't feel like the independent chair was paying attention - he certainly didn't pick up on the fact my outcome wasn't clearly communicated to me. However, the day before the viva our university announced mass redundancies and his role is one being made redundant so i kind of understand why he wasn't on the ball.

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TearsforBeers · 07/05/2024 16:26

bibliomania · 07/05/2024 16:09

I'd wait for the full report before making any decisions. It's possible that the internal examiner was only giving his side of things (possibly magnifying it for whatever malign reason) and the actual outcome isn't quite as he described it. Also, when you can consider it calmly, it might be that they suggest stuff that does genuinely make it better and you can get more publications out of it.

I deal with appeals and it sounds like you may have grounds for appeal, but it's worth thinking about whether the outcome is worth it. At best, the original decision would be set aside and you'd go through a new viva with new examiners - would you be better off with that rather than going with the rewrite?

Oh, and sympathies! It sounds extremely painful.

Thank you.
I'm not against making changes and had prepared for 'major' ....a re-write feels exceptionally harsh though.

I'm really on the fence about an appeal. I worry about the time it would take. My academic area is so niche and we really struggled to find examiners so don't really want to wait another 6 months for a viva. However, i do feel quite hard done by!!

I guess I need to wait for report ( which is already late) and see what my line manager says when he gets back.

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bibliomania · 07/05/2024 16:37

I can completely see why you feel hard done by - that sounds really unfair.

PolterGoose · 07/05/2024 16:44

How long ago was your viva?

It all sounds completely shambolic.

I do think you need to wait for the report, only then will you really know what you're dealing with.

TearsforBeers · 07/05/2024 16:47

PolterGoose · 07/05/2024 16:44

How long ago was your viva?

It all sounds completely shambolic.

I do think you need to wait for the report, only then will you really know what you're dealing with.

Almost 3 weeks ago.
We're supposed to get the report 10 days after the viva ........

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PolterGoose · 07/05/2024 16:49

I think I'd raise a complaint on the lateness now.

TearsforBeers · 07/05/2024 16:53

I've just emailed the person in our faculty who manages doctoral degrees. I've asked for an informal chat to see what her opinion on the situation is but also highlight the fact I've still not got my report!

It's totally shambolic and it frustrates me as a member of staff as we should be doing better for our students!

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PolterGoose · 07/05/2024 17:36

Hope the meeting is helpful ☝🏼

Chrysanthemum5 · 07/05/2024 17:40

I've been a chair for vivas and anything which is not raised in the viva cannot be in the report. If anything the internal spoke to you about after does appear then refer it back to the chair - they should sort that

Starfish1021 · 07/05/2024 17:44

That sounds horrendous and very odd that they didn’t give you the outcome in the room. As others have said if it’s not in the report it can’t be asked for. Your internal sounds very toxic but just hold your nerve for now and see what the report states.

StoatofDisarray · 07/05/2024 18:00

That's appalling. Have you spoke to the Department Manager or Head of Department, or whoever your supervisors' manager is?

TearsforBeers · 07/05/2024 19:44

PolterGoose · 07/05/2024 17:36

Hope the meeting is helpful ☝🏼

Thank you.
She replied immediately and we're going to have a chat tomorrow. She's sensible and we get on so she'll know I'm not exaggerating.

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TearsforBeers · 07/05/2024 19:48

Chrysanthemum5 · 07/05/2024 17:40

I've been a chair for vivas and anything which is not raised in the viva cannot be in the report. If anything the internal spoke to you about after does appear then refer it back to the chair - they should sort that

That's good to know.
The feedback he gave me afterwards was completely different to what had been discussed in the actual viva and I'm not sure I'd be able to achieve what he was asking - essentially to ignore the impact of Covid. I can't turn back time!!

The externals seemed sensible so hopefully the report focuses around their feedback 🤞🏻

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TearsforBeers · 07/05/2024 19:50

Starfish1021 · 07/05/2024 17:44

That sounds horrendous and very odd that they didn’t give you the outcome in the room. As others have said if it’s not in the report it can’t be asked for. Your internal sounds very toxic but just hold your nerve for now and see what the report states.

Thank you.

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oldgreysquirreltest · 07/05/2024 19:56

This sounds like an awful experience, terrible internal! I'd suggest waiting for the report (chase it, email the postgraduate research office every other day to ask where it is, so you have a record of not receiving it). The report might not include any of the additional stuff. There's no minimum time for a re write so you could just address the points in a timely manner and send it back in.

TearsforBeers · 07/05/2024 19:58

StoatofDisarray · 07/05/2024 18:00

That's appalling. Have you spoke to the Department Manager or Head of Department, or whoever your supervisors' manager is?

I'm very close to my Dean who is also my line manager.
He was away on an international trip and is now on annual leave but I've told him about it briefly. He'll be supportive and mightily pissed off if my internal has behaved inappropriately.

My supervisors are adamant it's not a re-write and they are both very experienced. One is an ex-dean and professor - my viva was on his last day before retirement which is why he forgot 🙄

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TearsforBeers · 07/05/2024 20:00

oldgreysquirreltest · 07/05/2024 19:56

This sounds like an awful experience, terrible internal! I'd suggest waiting for the report (chase it, email the postgraduate research office every other day to ask where it is, so you have a record of not receiving it). The report might not include any of the additional stuff. There's no minimum time for a re write so you could just address the points in a timely manner and send it back in.

That's a good idea.

That's my plan. I need it finished as soon as possible (for various reasons) so don't plan on hanging around.

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StoatofDisarray · 07/05/2024 20:28

Gah, how frustrating. Sounds like you've got a plan and I've got nothing to suggest that others haven't suggested! I sympathise: the viva is always a tense affair and this hasn't been helpful.

Please come back and give us an update when you are finally awarded your PhD!

TearsforBeers · 07/05/2024 20:37

StoatofDisarray · 07/05/2024 20:28

Gah, how frustrating. Sounds like you've got a plan and I've got nothing to suggest that others haven't suggested! I sympathise: the viva is always a tense affair and this hasn't been helpful.

Please come back and give us an update when you are finally awarded your PhD!

Thank you!
I will do ❤️

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